WEBVTT

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No matter what happens, even
if there’s a videotape of it,

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We used to, Julian and I
used to joke about that.

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Laura and I used to
joke about that, too.

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No matter what happens,
even if there’s a note,

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no matter what, I would
never commit suicide.

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If it ever happened in
such a way, it was murder.

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We used to joke
about those things

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that were found
dead from suicide.

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So do you have any other
questions for me? (chuckles)

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If so, this could be
one of those films.

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Isn’t this a precursor
\hto this kind of film?

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I’m sorry we couldn’t
be in Hong Kong, though.

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You know, one of those
mystery man spills all films.

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But first, Jacob
Applebaum has to vet me

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within an inch of my life
before allowing so much

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as my foot in his
door with a camera.

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Okay.
Shall I clap?

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We have picture, we have
\hsound. Give us a clap.

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And technically it’s
not even his door.

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\hMy camera and I only make it
there on interview number two.

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Can you tell me about what
landed you in this situation?

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Can you tell me
anything about it?

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You gotta be a little bit
more specific, I mean,

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because friends of
mine we’re facing

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It’s a fucked up
situation, but that’s,

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that’s the way the world
works currently, especially.

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Yeah, different phones
\hfor different things.

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Most of them have the
microphones removed.

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Most of the computers
that are in here,

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when his other life
got interrupted.

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I mean, I also do
other stuff here

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that has nothing
to do with the PhD,

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as you can see from
the crypto phone

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What can you tell me
about the other work?

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I am beginning to wonder
\hhow this is gonna work

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doesn’t want to
talk about himself.

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\hNobody wants to talk
about Jacob Applebaum.

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We had another cat
named Fancy Bear,

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but she died in a terrible,
somewhat mysterious accident

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in which I came home and
found her in the window.

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She had somehow
been on the balcony

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and then tried to jump back
in and strangled herself.

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And it’s either because I didn’t
bring the cats back inside

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or because someone
was in the house.

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They were doing something they
shouldn’t have been, right?

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But I remember very clearly
putting these cats inside.

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It’s very difficult
to talk about it

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essentially without
sounding, well,

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like one is a bit
mentally unstable.

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I don’t like using
the term exile

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or self-imposed exile loosely.
(dramatic music)

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I have no other passport,
no other citizenship.

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I don’t live in the
United States anymore

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because I have experienced
extensive harassment

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and Germans often joke
when they see my FBI files

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They often joke that
the surveillance

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is much more advanced
than the Stasi ever had.

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if I would be charged
with the Espionage Act,

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that would be a very
serious federal crime

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and it would carry more than
my natural life in years.

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I can expect the
Rosenberg treatment.

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The federal government
had laid the crime

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at the doorstep of two
native New Yorkers,

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and sends them to death
in the electric chair

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to pay for their
crime of treason.

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Mine is a country
that has a history

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of killing the dissidents
that it doesn’t like.

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it enables it to
happen illegally

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or simply does it
itself illegally.

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What do you mean
by surveillance?

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Because it is not something
that can be comprehended

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And looking back
in its totality,

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because for a few
minutes, say 15 minutes,

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you didn’t have that kind
of oppressive surveillance.

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You didn’t have weird
visits to your hotel rooms

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You didn’t have an
undercover person

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You didn’t have your
cell phone getting warm

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There’s a moment in which
you really are pretty sure

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you’re completely alone
and there’s cloud cover

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And it’s in that moment where
you get to take a breath

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and then you see, say,
the surveillance again.

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\hLike a person sits down
next to you on the bench

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and it’s in that
moment that you realize

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that was the moment
and now it’s gone.

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And it is an overwhelming
and terrible thing

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\hthat undermines your faith in
the ability to trust anything.

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And what’s terrifying
is that that’s

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not actually capturing
it accurately

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I’m not actually
able to explain that.

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that the FBI was
approaching people to-

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\hYou can only laugh with this
level of technical competence.

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around Jake’s world of
constant surveillance.

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He offers me a
demonstration in Israel,

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one of the places he’s
trying to get citizenship.

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by filming this one
building in particular.

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English?
Yeah.

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It’s cool.
You can’t film here.

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What are we-
It’s the US Embassy.

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Oh, okay.
Okay?

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\hI wonder how many times
that jogger will jog by.

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If you see this guy
three or four times,

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you know he’s not a jogger.
All right.

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And the people in
the car nearby,

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those are the people that
are reporting on you.

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does somebody jog a loop
for three hours, or is...

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While Jake tries to get me
to understand jogging spies,

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something else starts
happening involving this guy.

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\hHow about we duck in
here and get a coffee?

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While my crew takes a break,
Fuzzy sits down next to us,

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asks where we’re from
and what we’re filming,

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then goes to the market
across the street.

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And then he sits down
in the middle of us

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so that you can listen
\hto what’s being said.

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I mean, obviously that guy
is not here for the coffee.

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\hJake says Fuzzy is a
surveillance operative

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Do you remember I said he’s
just talked to that guy?

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I walked by that guy because
he’s speaking English

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And don’t look at him. You
don’t need to look at him.

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Of course he is, because
you fuckin’ looked at him.

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That’s what I’m trying to
teach you. Don’t do that.

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They’re there, but they’re
not there to hassle you.

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On the other hand, if they’re
not doing surveillance,

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then you sort of look like
a fuckin’ crazy person.

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But it is true that the
guy with the fuzzy hair

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has never walked
out of the market.

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And I did spend
the last 25 minutes

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And what I think is they
loop back through there.

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Global support strategy
is US government

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related to diplomatic
security stuff. (laughs)

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The point is, when
you look around,

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you see it, it’s
everywhere, you know?

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Okay, and now we got the
guy who’s got a name tag on

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who was clearly working
security somewhere.

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Yeah, there you go-
Hi, excuse me?

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I was just wondering, what
were you taking a picture for?

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Or used to-
Really?

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So I’m trying to show
this guy, the filmmaker,

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that when doing
surveillance detection,

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there are lots of people who
looks suspicious but aren’t.

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And so there’s a man
who is watching us

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is really who they
present themselves to be

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I can show you who’s
watching us. It’s funny.

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Right now it’s
through Stingrays.

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Are you familiar
with the Stingray-

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Oh yeah.
Technology?

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to another episode of
"Cops, Court and Coffee."

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So a Stingray
device is basically

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a cell phone
surveillance device.

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Right now I have a
machine in my back

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that contracts Stingray, but
one of the foremost, um...

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Using Snoop Snitch or
what are you using?

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Snoop Snitch, but also
Cellebrite Inbound.

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Yeah.
In your backpack?

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It’s time to envision
the future of policing.

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By collecting and reviewing
data from any source,

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making it available
to anyone who needs it

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This is digital intelligence,
a force multiplier.

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This is a very
interesting corner

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since on this very corner we
found a guy who used to do CNO.

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when they mean I break
into your computer.

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NSA? Oh yeah, National
Security Agency.

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Back in Berlin, I figure
I might have earned

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Tell me about the work
you did with WikiLeaks.

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\hIn general, the things
that I’ve done in public

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are the things that I’m
willing to talk about

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because everything else is
currently being investigated

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by a grand jury
where friends of mine

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have been coerced,
threatened because it seems

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like the work process
is essentially

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being criminalized and
\hunder investigation.

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is I suspect one
of the questions

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that’s ever worked near
WikiLeaks as a journalist,

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so maybe a different
question would be helpful.

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Marker.
(clapper thuds)

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I decide to get a
WikiLeaks refresher

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from a lawyer of Jake’s who
also advises Julian Assange.

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Michael Ratner, who
represented Julian,

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said first we lost
the War Powers Act,

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then we lost the ability
to challenge war in court.

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And now we have a president
who can go to war anywhere.

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We have leakers,
we have hackers,

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and that’s all we have left.
(tense music)

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Iraq was a blood
bath on every corner.

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And really WikiLeaks
in the early days

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is a ragtag bunch
of different people

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who believed that
using journalism

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to solve world’s
information problems

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would really make the
world a much better place.

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by publishing news leaks
and classified documents

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exposing things
like American drones

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The Hillary Clinton documents
released by WikiLeaks.

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Or leaking 30,000 of
Hillary Clinton’s emails

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Stuff like that made
Assange and WikiLeaks

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I wasn’t an employee
of WikiLeaks.

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I was a person
who was a massive,

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massive supporter
helping with things.

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And I’ve worked with
WikiLeaks quite extensively

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\hWell last night Assange
was arrested in absentia

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by Sweden on two
separate allegations

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But what lost Assange
many supporters

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and forced him into
the Ecuadorian embassy

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As we’re out filming,
news from Sweden,

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which Jake seems to
take very personally.

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I’m holding this
press conference today

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When was it clear to
you that the evidence

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Was it today or was
it clear to you...

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Was it today? (laughs)
Or was it 10 years ago?

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Before holding 10 years
of press conferences

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In such a situation, the
preliminary investigation

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and that is also what
has happened today.

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Wow, that’s, I mean
it’s just, like,

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they can’t convict him
based on this evidence.

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10 years later, Julian will
never, ever, ever have a chance

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And he has been maligned
for a decade as a rapist

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\hand then never have the
possibility of innocence

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is about breaking
someone’s spirit.

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I know something about
that and it changes you

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It’s the simplest case
of the world to describe,

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because people come back
with, well, isn’t he a rapist?

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Wasn’t he, didn’t
he hit his cat?

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I mean there’s all kind of
stupid tales that are made up.

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There are people that would
like to dehumanize me,

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to call me a monster,
who say that my support

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of Julian Assange is
to support a monster.

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It’s time to call out WikiLeaks
for what it really is.

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A non-state hostile
intelligence service,

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often abetted by state
actors like Russia.

19:31.070 --> 19:33.739
WikiLeaks walks like a
hostile intelligence service

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and talks like a hostile
intelligence service.

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It was something that was just
made up out of whole cloth

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and it was made up and it was
meant that you had no rights.

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make common cause
with dictators today.

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Yes, they try unsuccessful
to cloak themselves

19:56.228 --> 19:58.797
in their actions, language
of liberty and privacy.

19:58.831 --> 20:00.633
But in reality, they
champion nothing

20:03.569 --> 20:05.704
(journalists chattering)
(cameras clicking)

20:07.206 --> 20:10.209
that are in some way
working with Julian Assange.

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In 2010, that’s clearly me.
There’s no question about it.

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For example, when we release
the WikiLeak spy files...

20:19.652 --> 20:22.221
These systems are used
to hunt people down

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it not only says
Assange and WikiLeaks,

20:34.100 --> 20:36.569
And if there’s a charge
like the indictment,

20:36.602 --> 20:40.039
it’s "And others," so
that there’s always room

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And that’s quite clear,
and they do that on purpose

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and they know that
they are potentially

20:48.380 --> 20:50.782
going to be included
in a new version

20:50.816 --> 20:52.618
of the indictment
or another case.

20:54.720 --> 20:56.822
We can no longer allow
Assange and his colleagues

20:56.856 --> 20:59.926
the latitude to use free
speech values against us,

20:59.959 --> 21:01.394
to give them the
space to crush us

21:01.427 --> 21:03.396
with misappropriated
secrets is a perversion

21:03.429 --> 21:06.098
of what our great
Constitution stands for.

21:12.071 --> 21:15.575
a good indicator that my
fate is tied to Julian’s.

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How did his fate get
tied to Julian’s?

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Where does one start
down such a path?

21:37.296 --> 21:41.267
A couple of other
inhabitants of this movement,

21:41.300 --> 21:45.771
community, for internet
freedom, privacy...

21:47.072 --> 21:49.841
Finally agree after much
\hencrypted arm twisting

21:49.875 --> 21:53.612
to talk to me about this
world that spawned Jake.

21:55.047 --> 21:57.950
Mitch Altman is an
old friend of Jake’s.

21:59.151 --> 22:03.222
Nadim Kobeissi, not
so old, not so friend.

22:09.461 --> 22:11.430
There’s the cliche
of the hacker,

22:11.463 --> 22:15.267
of the the lone teenager
adolescent, whatever,

22:15.301 --> 22:17.870
with the hoodie and
crouched over their laptop.

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People at these conferences
and at hacker spaces,

22:24.076 --> 22:27.112
it’s predominantly
introverted geeks.

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I’ve been an introverted
geek all my life.

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I coined the term nerds
from broken homes community.

22:41.627 --> 22:44.697
Jake had given this
incredible talk.

22:44.730 --> 22:47.566
So I started blogging
about my travel in Iraq.

22:47.600 --> 22:51.170
I had been traveling with
Arab guards from Baghdad.

22:51.203 --> 22:55.074
I gave a talk to the CCC,
the Chaos Computer Club,

22:55.107 --> 22:57.710
about war zones
and disaster areas.

22:59.411 --> 23:01.780
"Have you had anyone
in your family killed?"

23:01.814 --> 23:04.417
And I talked a little bit about
my dad’s situation as well.

23:05.885 --> 23:08.187
So as a result, in
American society,

23:10.356 --> 23:14.260
He held nothing back
about sharing of himself

23:14.293 --> 23:17.897
stuff that other people would
consider super shameful.

23:19.832 --> 23:22.601
And it makes the talk
much more meaningful

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’cause we’re all
alive, you know?

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This right here is
the motivator for me

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to stop contributing to a world
full of bullshit and evil.

23:39.151 --> 23:41.053
I started doing
contracting for Tor.

23:42.354 --> 23:47.159
I was attending a computer
hacker convention called DEF CON

23:47.192 --> 23:51.296
and I met Roger Dingledine
and Nick Mathewson.

23:51.330 --> 23:53.532
Nick and Roger started
\hTor. They wrote Tor.

23:54.800 --> 23:57.636
Neither Roger Dingledine
nor Nick Mathewson

23:57.670 --> 24:01.073
responded to multiple
requests to talk about Jake.

24:04.143 --> 24:05.411
I have to ask my
fashion consultant.

24:09.515 --> 24:12.818
Tor’s former executive
director, did.

24:12.851 --> 24:15.320
At first we were just
a handful of developers

24:16.789 --> 24:18.491
and we were totally
unprepared for all,

24:18.524 --> 24:20.259
like all the politics
and the rest of the world

24:24.964 --> 24:27.366
and we’re going to talk
to you about things

24:27.399 --> 24:30.102
\hthat governments and
corporations have done

24:30.135 --> 24:32.170
to try to censor
the Tor network.

24:37.409 --> 24:41.146
It gives you the ability to
surf the web anonymously.

24:41.180 --> 24:43.449
No logins, no
passwords, no fees.

24:44.850 --> 24:46.518
Somewhere between a
quarter of a million

24:48.387 --> 24:52.024
Tor makes it very
difficult, in particular,

24:53.659 --> 24:56.529
what you’re searching
for on the internet.

24:57.863 --> 25:01.266
It’s currently the largest
anonymity network in the world

25:01.300 --> 25:04.303
that is publicly available
and free of cost.

25:04.336 --> 25:06.939
If you build a circuit
that goes from California

25:06.972 --> 25:09.041
to Iceland through
Zimbabwe exit...

25:09.074 --> 25:12.878
The network is a series of
computers all around the world

25:15.481 --> 25:17.783
and it goes through
those volunteer relays,

25:17.816 --> 25:20.218
they’re called Tor
relays, around the world.

25:25.024 --> 25:27.527
and so it’s very, very
\hdifficult for anyone,

25:29.194 --> 25:33.432
to find what you have
been searching for
if you’re a target.

25:33.465 --> 25:35.767
In a sense, I was a
naive and young person

25:35.801 --> 25:37.670
and I really believed
in the mission.

25:37.703 --> 25:39.305
What I’m hoping
to also point out

25:39.338 --> 25:41.841
is that this is
everyone’s department.

25:41.874 --> 25:44.443
There really isn’t a
geographical border.

25:48.847 --> 25:51.049
and you are gonna
have the ability

25:54.153 --> 25:56.756
and teach them how to
use anonymity tools.

26:02.795 --> 26:06.198
It’s also used for bypassing,
in many cases, firewalls.

26:08.100 --> 26:10.502
it used to be that the
\hidea was you wouldn’t

26:13.372 --> 26:17.109
What essentially Tor
would do in those cases

26:17.142 --> 26:19.611
is it could maybe
bypass censorship

26:19.645 --> 26:21.780
where it wasn’t clear you
were using Tor at all.

26:21.814 --> 26:24.016
If every single
person in this room

26:24.049 --> 26:26.485
went home and
started a Tor node,

26:26.518 --> 26:30.288
you would start a process that
the FBI called going dark.

26:33.725 --> 26:35.126
I mean it was just the
most thrilling work

26:36.361 --> 26:39.064
Like we built a
grassroots momentum.

26:44.536 --> 26:46.238
they used it to
reach out to Facebook

26:46.271 --> 26:49.241
when Facebook was blocked
but the Tor network wasn’t.

26:52.778 --> 26:55.281
One of the things the
government of Egypt said was

26:55.314 --> 26:57.449
we shut off the internet
because of Tor and Facebook

27:00.452 --> 27:02.721
By specifically
naming Tor in that,

27:02.754 --> 27:04.689
the world press took
notice and it was like,

27:06.525 --> 27:08.527
Here to discuss this with
me is Jacob Applebaum,

27:10.462 --> 27:12.831
Okay, so-
Hang on one second,

27:14.133 --> 27:15.568
Angela Richter is
a theater director

27:15.601 --> 27:18.504
and journalist deeply
immersed in this community

27:18.537 --> 27:22.508
who agreed, after some
hesitation, to talk about Jake.

27:23.609 --> 27:24.810
There’s no question
that understanding

27:24.843 --> 27:26.144
how to use those
computer systems

27:26.178 --> 27:27.613
and being able to
navigate them...

27:27.646 --> 27:29.781
After his talks,
he would sit there

27:29.815 --> 27:34.720
and be just this very
charismatic, open
to everyone person

27:34.753 --> 27:36.788
so everyone could
come and approach him.

27:36.822 --> 27:38.791
I wanted to stop
for just a second

27:40.092 --> 27:42.695
and have everybody
stand up and shake.

27:43.829 --> 27:45.297
It was kind of
hippie-esque. (chuckles)

27:45.330 --> 27:49.501
\hIt was a little bit of
feeling like I would say

27:49.535 --> 27:52.671
Woodstock 2.0 or
something, I don’t know.

27:52.704 --> 27:55.307
I prefer to sit in a circle
and have people share things

27:55.340 --> 27:57.275
\hand have a discussion,
but since this is how...

27:57.309 --> 28:01.146
And rather quickly he
became the sort of superstar

28:04.816 --> 28:09.521
the internet security
and policymaking world.

28:11.156 --> 28:14.226
He was also really good at
getting press about himself.

28:16.762 --> 28:19.331
Oh yeah, here’s Tor, here’s
why you should be using Tor.

28:19.364 --> 28:20.665
So that was really
how he, you know,

28:23.135 --> 28:25.070
I’m Dmytri Kleiner.
That’s Jake Applebaum.

28:25.103 --> 28:27.105
So I feel like
non-violent direct action

28:28.840 --> 28:31.009
You’re watching someone
taking a brave stance

28:31.043 --> 28:32.278
on something that
you care about,

28:32.311 --> 28:33.913
that you think is
good for society,

28:33.946 --> 28:37.316
against all odds and against
powerful institutions

28:37.349 --> 28:39.785
that perhaps have
conflicting interests.

28:39.818 --> 28:41.687
Having the ability
to reach a website

28:41.720 --> 28:44.523
that is beyond the
power of the state.

28:44.556 --> 28:46.525
I felt like that
community was lucky

28:46.558 --> 28:49.828
to have someone of
this sort of eloquence

28:51.797 --> 28:53.766
The control structure
has become one

28:53.799 --> 28:56.468
that breaks into things
and spies on people.

28:56.501 --> 28:59.537
Everyone wanted to speak
\hwith him after a while.

28:59.571 --> 29:03.442
Increasingly he became something
like a rockstar, you know?

29:04.943 --> 29:07.245
You go outside and you
say fuck this corporation

29:07.279 --> 29:09.281
that’s sponsoring an
event about free speech

29:09.314 --> 29:12.017
but they actually, like, you
know, censor the internet.

29:12.050 --> 29:14.152
(audience applauding)
Before we take questions,

29:14.186 --> 29:16.255
can everybody stand
up, follow orders?

29:24.029 --> 29:27.599
he played that up,
attracting people to him

29:27.633 --> 29:32.705
who he could definitely have
sex with later, hopefully,

29:37.709 --> 29:41.947
like rockstars’ groupies,
star fuckers. (chuckles)

29:43.982 --> 29:45.584
and we need to know
how to do it safely.

29:45.617 --> 29:47.552
And we need to find ways
of securely doing it.

29:47.586 --> 29:49.254
The cryptography is
good for the most part.

29:49.288 --> 29:51.490
I really witnessed women
and not only women,

29:51.523 --> 29:54.593
but also men throwing
themselves at him, you know?

29:54.626 --> 29:58.463
Do we have a right to privacy,
to dignity, to agency?

29:58.497 --> 30:02.301
And he was intelligent
and he was capable.

30:04.202 --> 30:06.071
give this movement
energy, you know?

30:06.104 --> 30:09.074
That was something which
I found very astonishing.

30:10.175 --> 30:13.045
There’s computers that
are worth breaking into

30:13.078 --> 30:15.213
and I highly encourage
you to consider

30:15.247 --> 30:18.083
that taking direct action,
non-violent direct action,

30:18.116 --> 30:22.153
when people are lying is
a righteous thing to do.

30:26.325 --> 30:30.362
He had a certain
charisma and brilliance

30:30.395 --> 30:33.632
and ability that made
it really possible

30:33.665 --> 30:37.169
for him to become a
leader of this group,

30:38.770 --> 30:41.373
But the point is not to
set out to martyr yourself.

30:42.874 --> 30:45.009
are you gonna stick
around this time, Julian?

30:45.043 --> 30:48.680
I dunno. I’m waiting for
\hthe quantum hand, Jake.

30:48.714 --> 30:52.751
\hPerhaps he could become
the next Julian Assange.

30:59.524 --> 31:01.226
All right, so what do
you wanna talk about?

31:01.259 --> 31:05.630
Tell me about the
2010 Hope Conference.

31:09.368 --> 31:11.604
you appear in public
for WikiLeaks.

31:15.574 --> 31:17.810
and the plan was for
Julian to come to America

31:20.679 --> 31:23.015
Well this is the the
Saturday keynote.

31:24.916 --> 31:29.154
about when I first met
Julian Assange of Wikileaks.

31:29.187 --> 31:30.789
And I knew we were
gonna get targeted

31:30.822 --> 31:33.825
in a really big way because
what was the talk about?

31:33.859 --> 31:36.028
It was about Chelsea
Manning’s arrest.

31:36.061 --> 31:38.196
The Pentagon will
press criminal charges

31:39.598 --> 31:41.867
who allegedly transferred
classified data.

31:41.900 --> 31:44.236
\hHow did Wikileaks get
this classified video?

31:52.444 --> 31:54.179
Things were getting
really hot at that point,

31:56.815 --> 31:59.017
until the last minute
Emmanuel Goldstein

32:00.852 --> 32:04.055
There is a WikiLeaks
presentation today.

32:04.089 --> 32:06.124
There is a WikiLeaks
keynote address.

32:07.692 --> 32:10.061
if they had any names on any
warrants, it was for Julian.

32:10.095 --> 32:13.098
I would like to
introduce WikiLeaks.

32:20.338 --> 32:22.607
And then I walked up on
stage and pulled off the hood

32:22.641 --> 32:24.676
and unzipped the jacket
and had a t-shirt on

32:26.778 --> 32:28.546
Thanks for leaking
those documents.

32:29.748 --> 32:31.250
I gave a talk in
public for Wikileaks.

32:33.485 --> 32:36.621
that is going to be able to
make the most amount of change.

32:37.689 --> 32:39.090
There were some
people that clearly

32:39.124 --> 32:41.393
were making their way towards
the front of the stage.

32:43.195 --> 32:45.230
Real official, scary
kinds of people.

32:46.898 --> 32:49.200
in domestic and
international surveillance.

32:52.037 --> 32:57.009
I felt like I was about
to have an aneurysm.

33:00.679 --> 33:03.015
Think about how you can make
a difference in the world

33:03.048 --> 33:06.151
and then don’t just
think about it, do it.

33:06.184 --> 33:10.822
(audience applauding)
(audience cheering)

33:16.094 --> 33:19.030
Now you might be asking
why would you do this talk?

33:19.064 --> 33:22.868
And I have for my entire 11
years since doing this talk

33:22.901 --> 33:24.936
have also asked
myself that question.

33:29.741 --> 33:33.144
So Jake starts doing more
and more activist stuff.

33:33.178 --> 33:36.314
Meanwhile Tor, you know, I
don’t want to make it sound like

33:36.348 --> 33:37.716
the State Department
pulling all the strings,

33:37.749 --> 33:40.885
but they had a
lot of sway at Tor

33:40.919 --> 33:43.655
as to this is acceptable,
not acceptable.

33:46.258 --> 33:48.727
We wrote a bunch of proposals
to the state department

33:48.760 --> 33:51.496
for their new internet
freedom program.

33:51.530 --> 33:56.135
We won 15 million and then
State Department’s attitude was

33:57.702 --> 34:00.672
You’re gonna do what we
tell you to do. (chuckles)

34:02.107 --> 34:03.842
to what has happened
to Chelsea Manning...

34:03.875 --> 34:05.777
Turns out he’s involved
with the Wikileaks.

34:05.810 --> 34:07.912
State Department,
they’re like, whoa.

34:22.527 --> 34:24.929
I took the hard drive
out of my computer.

34:45.317 --> 34:47.753
And there are two guys
inside that booth who say,

34:47.786 --> 34:50.188
"Is that what a terrorist
looks like today?"

34:55.560 --> 34:58.997
They took me in a room,
stripped off most of my clothes.

34:59.030 --> 35:02.000
He cupped my balls, stuck
his fingers up to my ass,

35:10.375 --> 35:13.545
They primarily focused
on my political views,

35:14.813 --> 35:16.248
be let back into
the United States

35:17.549 --> 35:19.017
I wouldn’t be allowed
to call a lawyer.

35:19.050 --> 35:21.052
I was not allowed
to use the bathroom.

35:21.086 --> 35:22.854
But they did give
me lots of water

35:24.990 --> 35:27.593
because the goal there
was to make me piss myself

35:27.626 --> 35:29.895
and become ashamed or
to put me under pressure

35:34.666 --> 35:36.768
And of course they
got to the laptop.

35:38.870 --> 35:41.239
"Tell us the password
to your hard drive."

35:42.974 --> 35:47.846
\hAnd I told him, "Hm, there’s
no hard drive in my computer."

35:49.314 --> 35:53.218
And they’d kind of look at
each other like what the fuck?

35:53.251 --> 35:55.553
And I was like, "When you get
really good with computers,

35:57.522 --> 35:59.424
And this, like, just
blew their minds.

36:04.596 --> 36:07.132
he kept talking about how I
was gonna be raped in prison

36:07.165 --> 36:09.467
and how hackers like
to think they’re tough.

36:12.370 --> 36:14.906
I told them I’m gonna make
a big stink about this.

36:14.939 --> 36:17.708
And he’s like, "Yeah, well
we’re gonna put you on lists."

36:19.044 --> 36:20.879
Every time I flew anywhere
in the United States,

36:20.912 --> 36:22.680
they used the
system to harass me.

36:25.850 --> 36:29.787
My customs and border
protection files, specifically,

36:29.821 --> 36:32.390
is hundreds and hundreds
and hundreds of pages long

36:32.424 --> 36:35.427
and over 300 of those
pages are fully redacted.

36:39.164 --> 36:41.733
we still receive documents
that don’t even tell me

36:47.772 --> 36:50.842
ever told me what it was that
I was alleged to have done.

37:02.454 --> 37:04.289
that the US was
interested in him.

37:19.070 --> 37:21.205
Can we talk a bit
about Edward Snowden

37:21.239 --> 37:26.444
and tell me about when you
first became aware of him?

37:32.951 --> 37:34.586
Lots of DOJ people
want to know the answer

37:36.688 --> 37:37.856
Laura told me that
she had something

37:39.824 --> 37:42.894
At the time, Jake tells
me he’d been collaborating

37:42.927 --> 37:46.931
extensively with the filmmaker
\hand journalist Laura Poitras.

37:48.299 --> 37:50.368
She didn’t want to talk
about Jake for this film.

37:54.005 --> 37:56.608
I got an email from an
an anonymous source...

37:56.641 --> 37:58.009
And she said that
she’d been working

37:58.042 --> 38:00.578
on cultivating a source
and she wanted me

38:01.880 --> 38:04.816
We had evidence of of
government illegality

38:04.849 --> 38:08.019
and NSA abuse and
mass surveillance.

38:08.052 --> 38:11.556
It was kind of like
imagine you have a person

38:11.589 --> 38:13.024
inside the
intelligence community

38:13.057 --> 38:14.759
and you can just see
behind the curtain

38:14.793 --> 38:17.462
and ask every question
you’ve always wanted to ask.

38:18.730 --> 38:21.700
My name’s Ed Snowden.
I’m 29 years old.

38:24.435 --> 38:26.971
as an infrastructure
analyst for NSA.

38:28.339 --> 38:30.775
I was in touch with him
while he was in Hong Kong.

38:30.809 --> 38:34.579
When I arrived in Berlin,
I had one suitcase with me.

38:34.612 --> 38:38.282
It just became
incredibly clear to me

38:38.316 --> 38:40.418
that my next flight
into the United States

38:40.451 --> 38:42.787
would have been
a really bad one.

38:42.821 --> 38:45.824
And that’s when documents
started to drop.

38:48.293 --> 38:51.429
A former CIA employee
has come forward

38:51.462 --> 38:54.532
as the source behind one of the
biggest leaks in US history.

38:54.566 --> 38:58.270
Edward Snowden says he did
it to inform the public.

38:58.303 --> 39:02.107
Edward Snowden is now
an international outlaw.

39:02.140 --> 39:03.808
I was there to help
vet the source.

39:03.842 --> 39:06.111
I looked at it and I wanted
to help publish the things

39:14.385 --> 39:17.054
Jake became more
and more famous.

39:18.790 --> 39:21.793
the full rosters of
everyone working at the NSA.

39:23.528 --> 39:25.964
that it was more of a
management question,

39:25.997 --> 39:27.699
like how do we get
the right people

39:29.133 --> 39:31.435
What Snowden has
revealed is, in fact,

39:34.005 --> 39:36.574
We got six Spiegel
cover articles in a row.

39:41.145 --> 39:43.047
When that worked-
Who is we, by the way?

39:46.184 --> 39:48.753
I’m saying we
intentionally to obfuscate.

39:50.555 --> 39:53.625
Probably the biggest story
that I personally broke

39:58.963 --> 40:02.099
was spying on German chancellor
Angela Merkel for years.

40:03.301 --> 40:05.470
That was a huge
scandal in Germany

40:18.082 --> 40:20.017
For this, I
understand that Obama

40:26.691 --> 40:28.059
He would start getting
more and more press

40:28.092 --> 40:29.460
’cause he’d be more
and more, like,

40:29.494 --> 40:31.062
we need to overthrow
the US government.

40:32.530 --> 40:34.399
by the government
you wanna overthrow.

40:36.501 --> 40:38.737
And he’s like, "No,
I wanna be famous."

40:38.770 --> 40:40.538
Almost every time
the State Department

40:40.571 --> 40:43.841
cut my paycheck
through the Tor Project

40:43.875 --> 40:45.543
to work on anything
related to WikiLeaks,

40:45.576 --> 40:48.779
well, it was State
Department funded. (laughs)

40:55.353 --> 40:58.857
There were a lot of people
from the programmers

40:58.890 --> 41:03.695
or hackers seen moving to
Berlin from all over the world.

41:08.099 --> 41:10.401
I think everybody
wanted to be different

41:10.435 --> 41:15.507
than the mainstream and so
people were experimenting a lot

41:17.208 --> 41:22.080
with sex and this and that.
(upbeat music)

41:27.885 --> 41:31.689
I wouldn’t say that there’s
a vibe of free love.

41:34.759 --> 41:38.529
But what I would say is
that consenting adults

41:38.563 --> 41:40.365
certainly have
interesting parties.

41:49.640 --> 41:53.744
because on one hand I felt
everyone wanted to be so free

41:57.015 --> 41:58.717
On the other hand, I
felt there was a lot

41:58.750 --> 42:02.020
\hof repression behind
it and that everything

42:11.362 --> 42:13.898
And there were, like,
orgies and the like.

42:14.966 --> 42:17.435
I have heard of the
fact that, yeah,

42:17.468 --> 42:21.172
so I’ve heard of that,
\hbut I never saw that.

42:24.175 --> 42:26.944
I don’t think I really seemed
like the type, you know?

42:28.346 --> 42:31.516
And such an invitation was
thankfully never extended.

42:32.817 --> 42:34.786
not because I wanted
to take part, actually,

42:34.819 --> 42:36.954
because I’m really
not interested in it,

42:41.826 --> 42:46.898
Jake’s sexuality is way not
mainstream, and mine neither.

42:49.634 --> 42:52.770
I’ve been queer all
my life and with Jake,

42:52.804 --> 42:57.208
it’s all over and
he’s always been poly

42:57.241 --> 43:00.277
since I’ve known him and
\hprobably all his life.

43:01.579 --> 43:03.948
It was not polygamy because
that’s related to sex.

43:03.981 --> 43:06.383
It was polyamorous
because that is something

43:06.417 --> 43:08.419
which is related to be
in love with many people,

43:12.090 --> 43:15.026
60, 70, 80 people would
be attending the party

43:15.059 --> 43:17.929
and on the top floor there
would be all of the people,

43:17.962 --> 43:21.032
you know, drinking
glasses of champagne,

43:21.065 --> 43:23.701
eating Dutch olliebollen
and, you know,

43:23.734 --> 43:26.704
one floor down in that
there would be, you know,

43:26.737 --> 43:30.140
people that were lovers or
partners that would play around.

43:31.909 --> 43:34.712
My girlfriend at the time,
she was sleeping with a woman,

43:34.745 --> 43:38.215
she was sleeping with a man,
I was sleeping with a woman.

43:38.249 --> 43:41.419
At some point everything just
became too much, you know?

43:41.452 --> 43:45.122
All the people who wanted
to be close to him,

43:45.156 --> 43:47.558
all the women and
men who also wanted

43:47.592 --> 43:50.228
to have sexual relationship
with him and so on,

43:50.261 --> 43:53.131
and then he started
to change, you know.

43:59.237 --> 44:01.673
In my opinion there’s not
only nothing wrong with it,

44:01.706 --> 44:06.778
but also this is a safe,
sane and consensual party

44:07.845 --> 44:09.513
where adults are having
sex with each other.

44:11.716 --> 44:16.354
And for me, all this
constellation became
very explosive.

44:17.889 --> 44:22.660
He had very little experience
in how to handle things

44:26.931 --> 44:30.168
I was even saying to
him, at some point,

44:30.201 --> 44:34.839
all the parties with
sex involved and so on,

44:34.872 --> 44:39.076
it’s an open invitation
for the secret services

44:39.110 --> 44:43.848
to kind of get in and just
destroy the whole movement.

44:45.082 --> 44:47.685
it’s just so in the
open, they can’t do it.

44:50.788 --> 44:53.924
I don’t know. I thought
it was naive, you know?

45:06.938 --> 45:08.907
We had a Tor developer
meeting in Munich

45:08.940 --> 45:10.475
and I had a really
bad experience

45:14.245 --> 45:17.749
People were freaking out
because Ed Snowden, you know,

45:17.782 --> 45:20.084
had done his, like,
whistleblower debut

45:20.117 --> 45:23.053
and you could see a Tor
sticker in the background.

45:23.087 --> 45:24.956
So people that were
in those worlds

45:24.989 --> 45:26.457
were like really
worried the heat

45:29.560 --> 45:31.529
The blow black from
that was just so big

45:31.562 --> 45:34.532
that it really broke a
\hlot of relationships.

45:34.565 --> 45:36.634
But what’s important
is to just remember

45:41.839 --> 45:44.875
the majority of the funding
was coming from grant writing

45:44.909 --> 45:48.946
and grant proposals from
USAID or the State Department

45:48.980 --> 45:51.483
as part of the Hillary
\hClinton 21st Century

45:55.386 --> 45:58.522
we have awarded more than $20
million in competitive grants

45:58.556 --> 46:01.392
to support a burgeoning
group of technologists

46:01.425 --> 46:03.928
and activists working
at the cutting edge

46:03.961 --> 46:06.163
at the fight against
internet repression.

46:07.965 --> 46:11.068
Lots of US government
money, lots of soft power.

46:13.237 --> 46:15.005
So now you have an
employee, you know,

46:15.039 --> 46:17.875
of Tor being funded
by the US government

46:17.908 --> 46:20.444
actively leaking secrets
of the US government

46:20.478 --> 46:23.214
and that was a
pretty clear line.

46:23.247 --> 46:26.317
The State Department
was like, you know, WTF?

46:30.187 --> 46:32.256
People who had been
somewhat friendly to Tor,

46:32.290 --> 46:34.092
whether the law
enforcement or military,

46:35.526 --> 46:37.294
"I can’t be publicly
associated with Tor anymore.

46:38.829 --> 46:41.398
This is the last time we’ll
ever meet. Good luck."

46:45.803 --> 46:47.238
They’re like, "Sorry,
we can’t support this

46:53.311 --> 46:55.313
holy crap, what the
hell just happened?

47:01.419 --> 47:03.922
Nick Mathewson talked
with me and asked,

47:03.954 --> 47:06.256
isn’t it the case that
my employment contract

47:06.290 --> 47:09.059
forbids me from working
for other people?

47:11.662 --> 47:13.430
And he was unhappy
about the fact

47:13.464 --> 47:16.233
that I had any involvement with
disclosing any information,

47:17.535 --> 47:19.904
and like being involved
with the Snowden leaks.

47:24.108 --> 47:26.477
started when we
discovered that a person

47:26.510 --> 47:30.447
who worked for the
CIA undercover of the
Department of State

47:30.481 --> 47:33.184
had tried to become
a manager at Tor.

47:35.986 --> 47:38.021
the State Department
was one of our funders.

47:38.055 --> 47:39.990
So when someone comes
from the State Department

47:40.024 --> 47:42.226
and says that they
wanted to work at Tor,

47:42.259 --> 47:44.828
what they are really
also kind of saying

47:44.862 --> 47:47.631
is this is what the
money people want.

47:47.665 --> 47:50.201
And so this is a really
uncomfortable situation

47:53.104 --> 47:57.809
Karen Riley, a colleague who
was formerly in the US Army,

48:00.311 --> 48:03.080
He was a friend of
Karen. I met him in DC.

48:05.116 --> 48:06.884
Karen’s a veteran,
he’s a veteran.

48:08.119 --> 48:10.555
And I had said, "Oh,
are you from the part

48:10.588 --> 48:12.256
of the State
Department that wants

48:12.289 --> 48:14.691
to shoot me and Julian
in the back of the head?"

48:14.725 --> 48:16.860
And he smiles and says
something to the effect of,

48:16.894 --> 48:18.929
"Oh no, that’s
another department."

48:20.731 --> 48:23.400
Well, it’s a federal 10 year
felony for me to tell you.

48:23.434 --> 48:27.838
I’ll just go with the guy that
worked for the CIA at Tor.

48:36.380 --> 48:38.482
Everything seemed to
be going smoothly.

48:38.516 --> 48:41.219
And then Roger sends
the email to the board,

48:50.728 --> 48:52.964
on the Tor internal
mailing list.

48:52.997 --> 48:56.067
\hAnd it was, you know, 10 Tor
people asking me to say things

48:56.100 --> 48:58.903
because they felt that I would
ask things they wouldn’t.

49:07.178 --> 49:09.614
What role did you have in
the drone strike program?

49:12.516 --> 49:14.084
These were the questions
people wanted to know

49:14.118 --> 49:17.388
now that they knew they were
dealing with a real CIA person.

49:17.421 --> 49:19.657
\hAnd of course, you know, it’s
just like, this is ridiculous.

49:19.690 --> 49:20.925
Who are you? What
are you doing here?

49:24.962 --> 49:28.499
We work with people in
South America who, you know,

49:28.532 --> 49:31.468
were killed by CIA funded
right wing death squads.

49:31.502 --> 49:33.004
Like, their family
members were murdered.

49:33.037 --> 49:35.172
This is a total devastation
to the Tor Project

49:35.206 --> 49:37.108
to be associated with
the intelligence service.

49:37.141 --> 49:41.512
Nothing personal.
(tense dramatic music)

49:41.545 --> 49:43.814
\hAt the time, all the
paranoid people in Tor

49:50.654 --> 49:53.857
And I thought, I don’t think
we should hire the guy.

49:53.891 --> 49:57.027
Later someone, not
me, really not me,

49:57.061 --> 49:59.497
leaked the chat log and
put it on the internet.

50:01.599 --> 50:03.935
Sorry David, but you’re
the sacrificial lamb here,

50:03.968 --> 50:05.770
so we’re gonna
rescind our offer.

50:07.037 --> 50:10.574
So CIA guy sued Tor for
discrimination against veterans.

50:13.611 --> 50:16.481
And then I knew my
time at Tor was over.

50:28.325 --> 50:30.961
Early 2015 we went
to Valencia, Spain

50:30.995 --> 50:32.763
for the Internet
Freedom Festival.

50:34.098 --> 50:39.170
I have gotten the impression
that Valencia 2015...

50:47.111 --> 50:51.349
I actually arrived there with
1,440 little magnetic balls

50:51.382 --> 50:54.352
\hthat I was going to use
for a certain discussion

50:54.385 --> 50:56.821
about workflow in
a presentation.

50:56.854 --> 50:58.656
Those balls never got
picked up at the front desk.

50:58.689 --> 51:00.558
They’re still probably
sitting there.

51:06.564 --> 51:08.866
Well, you know, long story
short is that Karen Riley

51:08.899 --> 51:13.170
from the Tor Project told
the human resources person

51:14.505 --> 51:17.375
that there had
been a rape by me.

51:30.988 --> 51:34.091
You know, it’s, we, he
must be gone immediately.

51:34.124 --> 51:36.994
None of us can really go
forward unless he’s gone.

51:42.066 --> 51:45.636
And the HR person, of
course, had a meltdown.

51:45.669 --> 51:50.474
You know, a lot of drama and
upset and distraction around,

51:52.443 --> 51:57.248
you know, allegations,
discomfort with Jacob Applebaum.

52:01.251 --> 52:02.486
"I don’t know what the
hell she’s talking about.

52:06.557 --> 52:08.526
I did my best to get
to the bottom of it.

52:09.860 --> 52:12.196
\hif there’s supposedly
a crime that occurred,

52:13.998 --> 52:16.501
Is there like a time?
When did it happen?

52:18.502 --> 52:21.572
You know, has anyone followed
the policy to report it?

52:21.605 --> 52:22.706
And when you have a
bunch of anarchists,

52:30.614 --> 52:33.684
And at that point, I
did not hear anything

52:33.717 --> 52:35.619
which persuaded
me that there was

52:35.653 --> 52:39.524
or that I could see in any
likelihood that there was undue,

52:39.556 --> 52:43.260
improper, sexualized
or other vile,

52:43.293 --> 52:47.330
any sort of harmful activity
towards another human being

52:47.364 --> 52:49.533
other than the crassness
in the workplace.

52:56.040 --> 52:58.476
No one’s filed a complaint,
no one’s followed the policy.

53:01.378 --> 53:04.448
you gotta get Jake and
Karen to, like, be civil,

53:04.481 --> 53:07.384
do something or we are actually
gonna pull your funding

53:07.418 --> 53:09.453
because it’s making
everybody look bad.

53:10.521 --> 53:12.523
Karen tells me she
won’t talk about Jake

53:19.830 --> 53:23.067
I just thought it was Karen
doing something terrible.

53:23.100 --> 53:25.336
But in retrospect I think
it was a lot more than Karen

53:28.038 --> 53:30.173
These people were
taking their shot at me.

53:43.987 --> 53:45.622
Essentially what
is happening today

53:45.656 --> 53:48.125
is a major, major
development point

53:51.195 --> 53:55.533
And that is that Julian
is in a British courtroom

53:55.566 --> 53:59.537
\hright now as we speak
and they are currently

53:59.570 --> 54:01.338
going through the motions
where the prosecutor

54:01.371 --> 54:04.341
has been laying out the
case for extradition

54:07.244 --> 54:08.312
United States of
America V. Assange.

54:09.580 --> 54:13.384
Julian Assange is facing
\han 18 count indictment

54:13.417 --> 54:17.554
that pretends that the United
States has no Constitution.

54:20.624 --> 54:24.228
After seven years of asylum
in the Ecuadorian embassy,

54:26.463 --> 54:28.732
allowing for
extradition to the US

54:28.766 --> 54:31.335
where he faces
espionage charges.

54:32.803 --> 54:35.572
I mean, it’s really only
the enemy of the US.

54:36.673 --> 54:40.143
Ultimately it took three
\hdifferent indictments.

54:41.478 --> 54:45.582
Actually Jake is a character
in the third indictment.

54:46.884 --> 54:50.388
Accompanying Julian
at this speech he gave

54:50.420 --> 54:54.758
was associate three who
also encouraged people

54:59.196 --> 55:01.532
I’d like to emphasize
this phrase,

55:07.938 --> 55:11.275
about what journalism
is and what it can’t be.

55:13.277 --> 55:17.148
This is entirely about
the publications of 2010.

55:17.181 --> 55:20.584
This is about the collateral
murder era of WikiLeaks

55:20.617 --> 55:23.053
where publications
were supposedly sourced

55:23.086 --> 55:25.822
from the alleged
whistleblower Chelsea Manning.

55:29.293 --> 55:33.097
Now, encouraging people to
send material is not a crime.

55:37.935 --> 55:40.037
If he ends up shipped
off to America,

55:40.070 --> 55:44.808
he will be put in a place like
\hthe ADX Supermax in Colorado.

55:45.876 --> 55:48.545
You get to see through
a very small hole,

55:48.579 --> 55:50.581
if you’re lucky enough
to get a window.

55:55.118 --> 55:59.456
I mean he’s already
been tortured and
arbitrarily detained.

56:01.291 --> 56:05.762
So I’m sure that when
Jake saw this indictment,

56:05.796 --> 56:09.833
it didn’t encourage him to
feel secure about his safety.

56:18.375 --> 56:20.978
How long has it been since
you’ve been in the US?

56:22.279 --> 56:26.784
It’s six years and approximately
one month and seven days,

56:34.258 --> 56:37.361
So I advised Jake
not to come back.

56:38.762 --> 56:42.366
I paint the picture of what
would happen if he went home

56:42.399 --> 56:45.035
and that kind of explains
why he shouldn’t go home.

56:49.706 --> 56:51.074
You know, I didn’t
leave the United States

56:51.108 --> 56:52.576
with the intention
of not going back.

56:54.011 --> 56:55.880
I’d like to visit
my father’s grave.

56:58.081 --> 57:00.050
I’d like to be able
to see my brothers.

57:05.322 --> 57:07.791
My father was very sick
for most of my life

57:07.824 --> 57:12.896
and he had hepatitis C and had
\ha very bad heroin addiction.

57:15.165 --> 57:17.834
I learned (speaks in foreign
language) for example,

57:17.868 --> 57:19.937
it’s one of my first
Spanish sentences.

57:19.970 --> 57:22.439
It’s like a gram of
black tar heroin.

57:23.774 --> 57:27.077
We used to drive to this
part of town called Roseland

57:28.445 --> 57:30.647
and then we’d drive
home and he’d shoot up.

57:32.883 --> 57:34.885
I spent a lot of time
with him when he was high

57:34.918 --> 57:37.087
and he was pretty
funny when he was high.

57:37.120 --> 57:39.889
He was always in a good mood,
it got rid of his back pain.

57:41.358 --> 57:43.160
My bar mitzvah was
my father handed me

57:43.193 --> 57:46.063
a used Jimi Hendrix
tape that had

57:48.365 --> 57:51.869
and he said, "Congratulations,
you survived.

57:51.902 --> 57:55.339
You’re a man."
(soft tense music)

58:00.644 --> 58:04.148
The police would come to our
house and do surveillance.

58:04.181 --> 58:06.583
So I had practiced telling
the police to get fucked

58:06.616 --> 58:08.318
about asking me
to be an informant

58:16.293 --> 58:18.495
which was called the
Orange Street House,

58:20.130 --> 58:23.467
\hand every nook and cranny was
eventually filled with people.

58:24.568 --> 58:26.070
I mean it was a
shooting gallery.

58:32.476 --> 58:34.945
And then later I remember
taking him to the hospital

58:46.390 --> 58:48.492
So I was alone with
him in the hospital,

58:50.260 --> 58:55.031
and yeah, and he
died in my arms.

59:04.441 --> 59:08.111
I was 18.
(melancholy music)

59:21.058 --> 59:26.130
In 2016, I was, in the
beginning of the year,

59:28.632 --> 59:32.302
and in the summer I
was effectively not
a person anymore.

59:36.840 --> 59:39.343
So the website,
JacobApplebaum.net

59:44.481 --> 59:47.317
There were countless
web news articles,

59:52.789 --> 59:56.226
investigated the main
allegations against Jake.

59:58.995 --> 01:00:01.731
Neither wanted to talk
\habout Jake at first.

01:00:04.935 --> 01:00:07.271
But eventually they
took pity on me.

01:00:22.519 --> 01:00:24.755
On this website, you
had a range of accounts

01:00:24.788 --> 01:00:27.991
on how, you know,
Jacob’d grope people

01:00:28.024 --> 01:00:30.226
or behaved
inappropriately with them

01:00:30.260 --> 01:00:32.262
or didn’t respect
their boundaries.

01:00:35.699 --> 01:00:38.502
how he frightened
people, and yeah,

01:00:38.535 --> 01:00:40.337
and there was one
allegation of rape.

01:00:43.573 --> 01:00:48.545
My first impression
was, wow, that’s bad,

01:00:49.713 --> 01:00:52.649
and those brave
people speaking out

01:00:52.682 --> 01:00:56.653
going against somebody
who’s such a key figure

01:00:58.822 --> 01:01:01.358
Isn’t one angle enough?
I don’t, I mean...

01:01:01.391 --> 01:01:04.327
Nadim Kobeissi, a
former friend of Jake’s,

01:01:06.329 --> 01:01:10.400
before agreeing very
reluctantly to talk about Jake.

01:01:12.669 --> 01:01:15.872
On that website, there was a
story by someone called Kiwi

01:01:17.174 --> 01:01:19.143
And I recounted
truthfully and honestly

01:01:19.176 --> 01:01:22.746
my professional
experiences with Jake.

01:01:24.881 --> 01:01:27.584
How he would humiliate
people at work,

01:01:29.052 --> 01:01:31.955
with meetings with potential
funders for projects.

01:01:34.958 --> 01:01:36.893
to get me kicked
out of the field.

01:01:36.927 --> 01:01:39.062
I spoke about that
sort of thing.

01:01:39.095 --> 01:01:40.630
Many of the stories
there are much worse,

01:01:44.935 --> 01:01:47.871
So one account was
given by a lady

01:01:49.940 --> 01:01:53.277
She’s known as Isis
to the community.

01:02:02.319 --> 01:02:04.688
where she was sleeping
in the same bed

01:02:04.721 --> 01:02:08.058
with Jacob Applebaum
and Jacob groped her.

01:02:13.263 --> 01:02:16.333
Sometime around five
o’clock in the morning,

01:02:16.366 --> 01:02:19.736
I woke up very
confused and startled

01:02:21.838 --> 01:02:24.874
and Jake’s arm was
wrapped around me,

01:02:28.245 --> 01:02:32.549
He rolled over a
bit exaggeratedly,
mumbling as if asleep.

01:02:36.686 --> 01:02:40.857
Isis told Anna Lowell that
it happened in a period

01:02:40.890 --> 01:02:45.595
of the year where she
gave an exact date.

01:02:47.731 --> 01:02:51.235
the incident happened
January 2014 in Berlin.

01:02:52.836 --> 01:02:56.973
and I showed her that exact
date I was in Thailand.

01:03:03.713 --> 01:03:06.849
Isis did not respond to
multiple interview requests

01:03:12.222 --> 01:03:15.092
So on the website,
Sam, as Alison Macrina,

01:03:15.125 --> 01:03:18.996
which is her real name,
she was friends with Jacob.

01:03:20.230 --> 01:03:24.034
the most badass radical,
librarian around.

01:03:24.067 --> 01:03:27.704
This is Alison.
(audience applauding)

01:03:35.712 --> 01:03:40.417
Okay, so she says she was
manipulated by Jacob Applebaum

01:03:44.487 --> 01:03:46.289
He told me he wanted
to take a bath

01:03:46.323 --> 01:03:50.127
and invited me into his
bathroom to hang out with him.

01:03:50.160 --> 01:03:54.297
I said, "Okay, but I don’t
wanna take a bath with you."

01:03:54.331 --> 01:03:57.868
He immediately began coercing
me to get into his bathtub

01:03:59.135 --> 01:04:02.639
and eventually I said,
"Okay, I’ll keep my underwear

01:04:02.672 --> 01:04:05.708
and t-shirt on," and put
my legs in the water.

01:04:05.742 --> 01:04:09.312
\hHe then kind of pulled
me into the tub halfway,

01:04:09.346 --> 01:04:12.416
turned me around and
started to wash me.

01:04:12.449 --> 01:04:15.786
His non-consensual washing
lasted about a minute or two

01:04:15.819 --> 01:04:17.754
before I leaped
out of his bathtub

01:04:17.787 --> 01:04:20.323
and started crying in the
corner of his bathroom.

01:04:25.895 --> 01:04:29.832
that I found conflicting
accounts on what happened.

01:04:31.434 --> 01:04:34.170
In the first account, she
told me she left right after,

01:04:34.204 --> 01:04:37.674
you know, he pulled
her into the bathtub.

01:04:39.008 --> 01:04:42.211
Jacob kept talking to
her, calling her a coward

01:04:42.245 --> 01:04:44.948
and touched her until
she had the energy

01:04:44.981 --> 01:04:47.283
to remove herself
from this situation.

01:05:02.165 --> 01:05:05.568
And the second conversation
I had with her on the phone

01:05:05.602 --> 01:05:08.939
was that she told me
that she left his house

01:05:08.972 --> 01:05:12.242
after they worked
together in the bedroom.

01:05:13.376 --> 01:05:18.114
\hSo her story changed.
(tense dramatic music)

01:05:19.482 --> 01:05:22.518
I drained the bath, we went
out, we went into the bedroom.

01:05:22.552 --> 01:05:27.223
She calmed down and then
propositioned me for sex

01:05:27.257 --> 01:05:30.026
and we discussed it and
then we had sex on my bed

01:05:30.059 --> 01:05:34.463
for a while until my boyfriend
and his boyfriend came home

01:05:34.497 --> 01:05:38.001
and she wanted to stop
then, so we stopped

01:05:38.034 --> 01:05:40.003
’cause she didn’t want
them to be involved

01:05:43.673 --> 01:05:47.977
After more than a year,
Alison replied to an email.

01:05:54.083 --> 01:05:56.285
But then she talked to
\hsome other Tor people

01:05:56.319 --> 01:05:58.721
who weren’t talking
and changed her mind.

01:06:08.731 --> 01:06:12.969
Who later gave her real
name as Chelsea Komlo.

01:06:14.037 --> 01:06:15.438
Okay, cool. Thank
you for coming today.

01:06:15.472 --> 01:06:19.042
I’m Chelsea, and this is
Isis, a colleague and friend.

01:06:19.075 --> 01:06:23.546
Komlo was briefly involved
romantically was Jacob

01:06:23.580 --> 01:06:28.652
on New Year’s Eve of 2015
and the days afterwards.

01:06:36.593 --> 01:06:38.128
I didn’t know
until very recently

01:06:38.161 --> 01:06:42.065
that non-consensual sex
by a friend is rape.

01:06:43.366 --> 01:06:46.002
When I became romantically
involved with Jacob,

01:06:46.035 --> 01:06:49.672
I clearly told him I wasn’t
interested in group sex

01:06:49.706 --> 01:06:52.442
or having sex in
front of other people.

01:07:03.052 --> 01:07:06.389
I blacked out and when I
came back into consciousness,

01:07:06.422 --> 01:07:09.292
Jacob was having sex with
me in the living room

01:07:29.679 --> 01:07:31.714
Most of the witnesses
from those days

01:07:37.120 --> 01:07:38.888
This is obviously very
\hemotional for me so-

01:07:42.859 --> 01:07:46.796
\hBut one does finally agree to
discuss the night in question.

01:07:47.931 --> 01:07:52.669
One of the reasons why I
was determined to, like,

01:07:54.037 --> 01:07:57.807
talk about this in public
was because the painting

01:07:59.175 --> 01:08:03.112
that was drawn from Chelsea
in her anonymous blog post

01:08:12.255 --> 01:08:13.957
I don’t remember if that
was the plan or what,

01:08:13.990 --> 01:08:17.994
but by the time the movie
started, the couch was laid out.

01:08:18.027 --> 01:08:22.798
It was my two friends and
then Chelsea and Jake,

01:08:22.832 --> 01:08:25.768
so those two couples were
there on the couch together

01:08:25.802 --> 01:08:29.406
under a blanket and then I
was just off to the side.

01:08:31.908 --> 01:08:34.844
so it was like making
the room fairly bright.

01:08:34.877 --> 01:08:39.615
And what was her degree
of participation, I guess,

01:08:39.649 --> 01:08:41.784
in whatever was or
wasn’t going on?

01:08:43.086 --> 01:08:44.187
Well, I mean, there
wasn’t anything going on.

01:08:46.122 --> 01:08:48.891
we were all casually
hanging out,

01:08:48.925 --> 01:08:52.829
watching a film and two
different couples were cuddling

01:08:52.862 --> 01:08:55.531
with themselves separate
from each other.

01:08:55.565 --> 01:08:59.536
I didn’t, there wasn’t anything
substantial that happened.

01:08:59.569 --> 01:09:02.439
It was just a very
relaxed movie night.

01:09:08.811 --> 01:09:13.883
I was within a couple
inches of the couch.

01:09:15.118 --> 01:09:17.487
It, like, I was immediately
next to the couch.

01:09:17.520 --> 01:09:18.821
There was nothing
that alluded me

01:09:18.855 --> 01:09:20.490
to think that they
were either naked

01:09:20.523 --> 01:09:24.327
or having sexual relations
under the blanket.

01:09:28.297 --> 01:09:31.467
Like, the vibe that
she was describing.

01:09:31.501 --> 01:09:33.603
Like it was very malicious,
it was very hate,

01:09:33.636 --> 01:09:36.639
like not hateful, but,
like, it was terrible.

01:09:36.673 --> 01:09:39.476
She made it sound
like if anyone,

01:09:39.509 --> 01:09:42.412
if any bystander had been
like in that apartment

01:09:46.282 --> 01:09:49.385
like yelled "Stop," you know,
"What you’re doing is wrong."

01:09:50.720 --> 01:09:52.989
was just completely
the opposite.

01:09:56.259 --> 01:09:59.462
My conclusion is, from talking
to all the eyewitnesses,

01:10:03.366 --> 01:10:05.401
that she was
involved with Jacob.

01:10:07.737 --> 01:10:11.708
So I couldn’t corroborate
the rape allegation.

01:10:13.643 --> 01:10:17.046
Chelsea did not respond to
multiple interview requests

01:10:20.316 --> 01:10:24.754
But the assumption was that
their stories were true.

01:10:29.058 --> 01:10:32.161
As a journalist, you’re
trained to check everything,

01:10:32.195 --> 01:10:35.365
so everything you
believe being true,

01:10:35.398 --> 01:10:38.401
you go and try to check it
and you don’t check it once,

01:10:38.434 --> 01:10:39.869
you try to check
it for many people

01:11:12.135 --> 01:11:15.338
Yeah, later she shouted at
me for, what did she say?

01:11:15.371 --> 01:11:17.506
I don’t remember the
correct wording anymore.

01:11:19.075 --> 01:11:21.744
I lied to her, I
think she said. Yeah.

01:11:21.778 --> 01:11:24.748
And I responded that
I never lied to her,

01:11:24.781 --> 01:11:27.450
that she actually
changed her story

01:11:28.584 --> 01:11:31.253
and I reported on
what she told me.

01:11:34.590 --> 01:11:36.358
No, she screamed
quite loudly, I think,

01:11:36.392 --> 01:11:39.662
was about that she didn’t
feel safe or something.

01:11:39.695 --> 01:11:42.431
She’s like, no, "Nobody’s
gonna talk to you.

01:11:52.074 --> 01:11:54.677
I mean it was very important
for me to say that, you know,

01:11:54.710 --> 01:11:57.179
it’s not that I’m
here to defend Jake.

01:11:57.213 --> 01:12:00.283
My idea is to find out what
happened as much as I can

01:12:00.316 --> 01:12:03.920
and it’s a puzzle and you
will always have blank pieces.

01:12:07.323 --> 01:12:09.725
The one place everybody
does seem happy

01:12:09.759 --> 01:12:12.262
to talk about Jake
is on Twitter.

01:12:26.943 --> 01:12:29.379
Because of course
you question also Tor

01:12:29.412 --> 01:12:31.981
and you question everything
that he was involved with

01:12:32.014 --> 01:12:33.916
after what happened,
because everyone thinks,

01:12:35.718 --> 01:12:38.588
One of the key things is
that people in this room

01:12:38.621 --> 01:12:40.189
that work on free
software were...

01:12:41.924 --> 01:12:44.160
but there’s no community
around it anymore.

01:12:49.031 --> 01:12:52.568
This is something
that is so effective

01:12:52.602 --> 01:12:55.472
that I cannot imagine that
you just do it like this,

01:12:55.504 --> 01:12:57.473
you know, because these
people are intelligent

01:12:58.674 --> 01:13:00.609
They are all nerdy
women, you know,

01:13:02.478 --> 01:13:05.748
So I cannot imagine
that they are so stupid

01:13:07.950 --> 01:13:10.519
that they would do to
the whole movement,

01:13:10.553 --> 01:13:15.291
you know, doing this to Jake.
(tense dramatic music)

01:13:16.359 --> 01:13:19.729
I find it extremely
weird that it’s so easy

01:13:19.762 --> 01:13:23.899
to take out a person who is
really a dissident, you know,

01:13:26.535 --> 01:13:29.271
very successful
in this movement,

01:13:29.305 --> 01:13:32.475
and very dangerous,
actually, to the powerful,

01:13:32.508 --> 01:13:34.243
to people who do
mass surveillance,

01:13:34.277 --> 01:13:37.380
to secret services,
military and so on.

01:13:41.784 --> 01:13:44.654
so if you attempt
to attack them,

01:13:44.687 --> 01:13:46.589
sure it will
backfire in some way.

01:13:50.092 --> 01:13:53.329
that if this is not
orchestrated directly

01:14:09.578 --> 01:14:12.381
This is something that
has a long history.

01:14:15.318 --> 01:14:17.620
There has never been a
full public accounting

01:14:17.653 --> 01:14:20.689
of FBI domestic
intelligence operations.

01:14:21.691 --> 01:14:23.393
Therefore, this
committee has undertaken

01:14:24.860 --> 01:14:26.862
We’ve found out in
the church committee

01:14:26.896 --> 01:14:29.966
that there were things that
were called COINTELPRO,

01:14:29.999 --> 01:14:33.002
which was counterintelligence
operations.

01:14:34.103 --> 01:14:37.840
COINTELPRO is the
effort by the Bureau

01:14:37.873 --> 01:14:40.876
to destroy people and to
\hdestroy organizations.

01:14:42.178 --> 01:14:45.615
It was practiced specifically
against Dr. King.

01:14:45.648 --> 01:14:48.518
You can’t begin to say that
the Black Panther party...

01:14:48.551 --> 01:14:51.020
Against Black Panthers
and many other groups.

01:14:51.053 --> 01:14:52.988
They attempted to
translate the tactics

01:14:53.022 --> 01:14:55.424
used first against
the Communist Party,

01:14:55.458 --> 01:14:57.994
against virtually
every perceived enemy.

01:15:00.629 --> 01:15:04.566
They sent false letters,
false love letters,

01:15:07.203 --> 01:15:10.306
put people in groups
against each other.

01:15:10.339 --> 01:15:13.909
You know, did these things
to destroy political action.

01:15:13.943 --> 01:15:17.313
Bureau agents were told
to attack the new left,

01:15:17.346 --> 01:15:19.615
including to follow and
report the activities

01:15:19.648 --> 01:15:22.151
of the Women’s
Liberation Movement.

01:15:23.386 --> 01:15:26.122
One of the methods that
the US had developed

01:15:26.155 --> 01:15:28.924
was to do character
assassination

01:15:28.958 --> 01:15:32.228
by putting in agents
who would create trouble

01:15:36.966 --> 01:15:40.303
or accusations of infidelity
or anything else that,

01:15:40.336 --> 01:15:44.740
at that time in history,
would destroy your reputation.

01:15:44.774 --> 01:15:48.544
The plan here is to
completely discredit Dr. King

01:15:48.577 --> 01:15:51.613
by quote, "Taking
him off his pedestal

01:15:52.882 --> 01:15:55.618
and to reduce him
completely in influence."

01:15:56.952 --> 01:15:59.188
Just to make an accusation
against a person

01:15:59.221 --> 01:16:02.024
perhaps is not
exactly effective,

01:16:02.058 --> 01:16:04.894
but everybody you
know is imperfect.

01:16:06.962 --> 01:16:08.697
that you can raise
about a person

01:16:08.731 --> 01:16:11.467
and then raise it
to a higher degree,

01:16:11.500 --> 01:16:13.469
then there’s a
seed of truth in it

01:16:13.502 --> 01:16:16.905
so that you can
really get on a train

01:16:16.939 --> 01:16:19.175
and make it into
something really important

01:16:20.242 --> 01:16:22.411
that you forget,
that what caused it

01:16:22.445 --> 01:16:25.748
was not really significant,
it was just a human failure.

01:16:34.023 --> 01:16:36.926
Actually they don’t have to
do much, the secret service.

01:16:38.360 --> 01:16:42.364
take popcorn and see
what happens, you know?

01:16:57.346 --> 01:17:00.449
Isis accusing other
people of things.

01:17:00.483 --> 01:17:03.720
Well, there was the
Jake accusation,

01:17:09.592 --> 01:17:11.527
\hone of the co-founders of the
Electronic Frontier Foundation

01:17:11.560 --> 01:17:14.496
was accused of
being a drug dealer,

01:17:14.530 --> 01:17:17.066
a cocaine or heroin dealer
or something like that,

01:17:17.099 --> 01:17:21.303
who had sent his drug dealing
henchman to beat them up,

01:17:25.207 --> 01:17:28.644
Then there was the
accusation of Dan Bernstein,

01:17:28.677 --> 01:17:31.146
who is a well known
academic in the field.

01:17:33.015 --> 01:17:35.684
And his wife or his
partner, Tanja Lange,

01:17:35.718 --> 01:17:38.888
conspiring to make
Isis homeless.

01:17:38.921 --> 01:17:41.824
Then there was the accusation
against Will Scott.

01:17:41.857 --> 01:17:44.226
He was accused of
some sexual thing.

01:17:44.260 --> 01:17:47.330
And then there was the
accusation against Peter Todd,

01:17:48.831 --> 01:17:51.033
Moritz Bartl, who was a
contributor to the Tor Project,

01:17:51.066 --> 01:17:54.836
accused of being a spy,
like a narc or something.

01:17:54.870 --> 01:17:57.406
Other people were accused
of various forms of assault,

01:17:59.508 --> 01:18:01.643
And I think that ultimately
the number of people

01:18:01.677 --> 01:18:05.147
that they’ve accused of serious
crimes was maybe 10 or more.

01:18:16.025 --> 01:18:20.596
\hIt seemed very odd that
someone who was so smart

01:18:20.629 --> 01:18:24.199
and talented was
constantly, constantly

01:18:24.233 --> 01:18:26.569
making very extreme
accusations against people.

01:18:26.602 --> 01:18:29.238
Someone who was highly
respected by me prior.

01:18:29.271 --> 01:18:31.106
And at that time I
felt like I basically

01:18:35.678 --> 01:18:38.748
And basically Peter Todd sent
me a tweet that they wrote,

01:18:38.781 --> 01:18:41.284
that Isis wrote
about Peter Todd.

01:18:42.384 --> 01:18:44.786
What was the tweet
Peter Todd sent you?

01:18:56.298 --> 01:18:58.066
There seems to be a
pattern of accusing

01:19:04.306 --> 01:19:06.375
I was accused of
being a serial rapist

01:19:13.182 --> 01:19:15.685
Her direct reply was a
very long series of tweets

01:19:15.718 --> 01:19:18.454
in which I was
called many insults.

01:19:24.159 --> 01:19:26.461
and a lot of injustice
because it’s not true.

01:19:32.167 --> 01:19:33.535
When Isis came out
with her story,

01:19:33.569 --> 01:19:35.604
this other person
called Chelsea Komlo,

01:19:35.638 --> 01:19:37.573
she started tweeting threats
at me out of nowhere,

01:19:39.375 --> 01:19:42.912
She had personal stories
about me that she had heard

01:19:42.945 --> 01:19:44.980
and that she had
experienced things with me

01:19:46.315 --> 01:19:49.318
I’ve never met her,
never spoken to her,

01:19:51.487 --> 01:19:53.389
"We know the bad
things you’ve done."

01:19:55.157 --> 01:19:57.259
And I replied to her, "What
are you talking about?"

01:19:57.293 --> 01:19:59.929
And she said, "You’re
a terrible person.

01:19:59.962 --> 01:20:02.031
We know all the bad
things you’ve done."

01:20:04.633 --> 01:20:06.568
And then whenever I
would go to a conference,

01:20:06.602 --> 01:20:08.337
there would be a
litany of tweets

01:20:10.506 --> 01:20:12.541
how I should not be
at that conference,

01:20:12.574 --> 01:20:15.811
how I would make my mother
proud if I committed suicide.

01:20:17.146 --> 01:20:20.116
How the conference
organizer should remove me.

01:20:23.619 --> 01:20:25.721
The conference
attendees, themselves,

01:20:25.754 --> 01:20:27.322
should take matters
into their own hands

01:20:27.356 --> 01:20:29.124
and physically
remove me by force.

01:20:34.563 --> 01:20:36.698
People recognized me
from Isis’s tweets.

01:20:36.732 --> 01:20:39.535
They showed me Isis’s
tweets on their phone

01:20:39.568 --> 01:20:42.004
and physically
confiscated my phone

01:20:42.037 --> 01:20:47.009
and then pushed me to the
ground and started insulting me

01:20:52.014 --> 01:20:55.384
I actually asked while they
were doing this, like, why?

01:20:57.152 --> 01:20:58.553
That’s what they
said. "You know why."

01:20:58.587 --> 01:21:01.557
And they showed me the tweet
on their phone, like Twitter.

01:21:01.590 --> 01:21:03.892
"That’s why." And
it’s Isis’s tweet.

01:21:11.533 --> 01:21:13.668
\hfrom the same people
who are accusing Jake.

01:21:15.838 --> 01:21:17.807
And there’s a sort of
like George W. Bush,

01:21:17.840 --> 01:21:20.509
like you’re either with us
or against us sort of thing.

01:21:35.557 --> 01:21:38.560
So I was offered a deal.
\hI was offered immunity.

01:21:39.695 --> 01:21:43.265
I was invited to
testify against Julian

01:21:43.298 --> 01:21:46.568
in the, what we call the
WikiLeaks grand jury.

01:21:48.771 --> 01:21:51.440
It is being used
to go after people

01:21:51.473 --> 01:21:53.875
that are in any way
associated with WikiLeaks,

01:21:53.909 --> 01:21:57.913
with Julian Assange,
and to force them,

01:21:57.946 --> 01:22:01.716
under threat of indefinite
detention, to testify.

01:22:05.654 --> 01:22:07.156
When I called
Julian on the phone

01:22:07.189 --> 01:22:10.259
to tell him I’d received this
invitation to the grand jury,

01:22:10.292 --> 01:22:13.362
at the cost of his
life, he said, you know,

01:22:13.395 --> 01:22:16.932
"In 2016, Tor took away your
ability to define yourself.

01:22:16.965 --> 01:22:20.735
But in 2018, that grand
jury gave it back to you.

01:22:22.070 --> 01:22:24.239
So who do you want to be?
How do you want to be?

01:22:24.273 --> 01:22:25.474
You know, you should
think about it.

01:22:25.507 --> 01:22:26.408
Maybe you want to
take the deal."

01:22:51.500 --> 01:22:56.472
I’m not so interested in
speaking in public these days.

01:22:57.706 --> 01:22:59.107
It is also the case
that I’m not invited

01:22:59.141 --> 01:23:00.709
to many of the places that
I was often invited to,

01:23:04.480 --> 01:23:06.782
to not be completely
socially isolated.

01:23:06.815 --> 01:23:10.052
And I wanted to see other
people where, you know,

01:23:10.085 --> 01:23:11.620
they didn’t try to
publicly shame me

01:23:11.653 --> 01:23:15.357
or treat me with
massive disrespect.

01:23:19.127 --> 01:23:21.596
Here basically everybody
has been detained

01:23:21.630 --> 01:23:24.466
or arrested or
threatened or blacklisted

01:23:24.500 --> 01:23:28.671
or banned or deported or
something else like that.

01:23:30.906 --> 01:23:33.308
You know, when things
are really difficult,

01:23:33.342 --> 01:23:37.847
you definitely would like
to know who is on side.

01:23:41.383 --> 01:23:42.985
I feel really humbled
to be invited here

01:23:43.018 --> 01:23:44.820
and actually, I haven’t
been speaking in public

01:23:44.853 --> 01:23:48.390
for many years because in
2016, like Julian Assange

01:23:48.423 --> 01:23:51.459
and approximately a dozen
other people that I know,

01:23:51.493 --> 01:23:53.261
I was accused of a
whole bunch of things

01:23:53.295 --> 01:23:55.531
from eating the
last piece of cake

01:24:01.403 --> 01:24:03.839
left wing liberal
Californians, where I’m from,

01:24:03.872 --> 01:24:06.274
they don’t dignify me as
being in political exile.

01:24:06.308 --> 01:24:08.977
And I think the most important
\hthing to say to those people

01:24:09.011 --> 01:24:12.414
is that they’re privileged
fucks and I hate them.

01:24:17.085 --> 01:24:19.187
And then a fantastic
thing happened.

01:24:19.221 --> 01:24:22.491
In the fall, I think
it was of 2018,

01:24:22.524 --> 01:24:25.560
some lawyers that represent
me in the United States

01:24:27.262 --> 01:24:29.998
And so the US government,
to my understanding,

01:24:30.032 --> 01:24:32.735
said to them that
they’d like to know

01:24:32.768 --> 01:24:34.970
\hif I’d be interested in
coming in from the cold.

01:24:35.003 --> 01:24:37.873
They offered me a
free ticket home,

01:24:41.476 --> 01:24:43.778
Full immunity is a
really nice offer.

01:24:46.548 --> 01:24:48.683
it’s like the gold
plated Cadillac

01:24:48.717 --> 01:24:50.552
of becoming a piece
of shit snitch.

01:24:55.390 --> 01:24:58.693
And they said, you know,
essentially just one thing,

01:24:58.727 --> 01:25:01.296
we just need you to testify
against Julian Assange.

01:25:02.397 --> 01:25:06.001
So I told them that I
will die on foreign soil

01:25:06.034 --> 01:25:09.304
before I ever let you get
your fucking Nazi hands on me.

01:25:29.391 --> 01:25:31.326
Yeah, well, you know,
you get accused of rape

01:25:32.995 --> 01:25:35.364
on wanting to talk
in public, right?

01:25:45.607 --> 01:25:47.008
Go for it.
Thank you.

01:25:52.147 --> 01:25:54.616
is the infrastructure for
the psychological operations.

01:25:56.218 --> 01:25:58.220
But we’ll have time. I’ll
be here for three days.

01:26:04.192 --> 01:26:05.593
See you tomorrow.
_ Yep.

01:26:06.628 --> 01:26:09.097
My team and I spent
over two years

01:26:09.131 --> 01:26:12.534
chasing more than 40
people to talk about Jake.

01:26:13.602 --> 01:26:18.674
Tor, people alleged
victims, friends, foes.

01:26:27.849 --> 01:26:30.819
And only the handful
you’ve met agreed,

01:26:38.994 --> 01:26:39.795
Okay.
We’re done for today.

01:26:39.828 --> 01:26:41.029
Okay.
Okay.

01:26:41.063 --> 01:26:43.432
Now why should people be
\hafraid to speak freely

01:26:43.465 --> 01:26:46.601
in a community dedicated
to internet freedom?

01:26:47.869 --> 01:26:49.170
I think let’s leave
it at that for today.

01:26:49.204 --> 01:26:50.839
Are you sure?
Yeah.

01:26:56.378 --> 01:26:58.247
But they sure seem
to tweet a lot.

01:26:59.381 --> 01:27:01.884
Like whenever Jake
makes a speech

01:27:09.091 --> 01:27:11.360
or someone tries to
make a film about him...

01:27:21.136 --> 01:27:23.171
I think we’ll leave
it at that for today.

01:27:23.205 --> 01:27:25.474
Are you sure? ’Cause I can
keep going for another hour.

01:27:42.124 --> 01:27:44.693
What do I have to gain from
this? It’s completely stupid.

01:27:45.927 --> 01:27:47.395
I don’t want to
associate with this guy.

01:27:52.234 --> 01:27:54.470
He’s just a, he’s a
fucked up asshole loser,

01:27:54.503 --> 01:27:56.605
like, I don’t give
a shit about him.

01:28:12.888 --> 01:28:17.459
(dramatic electronic
music continues)

01:28:22.631 --> 01:28:27.202
(dramatic electronic
music continues)