WEBVTT 00:34.535 --> 00:36.804 No matter what happens, even if there’s a videotape of it, 00:43.377 --> 00:45.746 We used to, Julian and I used to joke about that. 00:45.779 --> 00:47.314 Laura and I used to joke about that, too. 00:47.347 --> 00:49.716 No matter what happens, even if there’s a note, 00:49.750 --> 00:52.086 no matter what, I would never commit suicide. 00:52.119 --> 00:55.089 If it ever happened in such a way, it was murder. 00:55.122 --> 00:56.557 We used to joke about those things 00:57.858 --> 00:59.493 that were found dead from suicide. 01:00.827 --> 01:04.597 So do you have any other questions for me? (chuckles) 01:11.371 --> 01:14.808 If so, this could be one of those films. 01:26.987 --> 01:29.857 Isn’t this a precursor \hto this kind of film? 01:29.890 --> 01:32.359 I’m sorry we couldn’t be in Hong Kong, though. 01:32.392 --> 01:36.096 You know, one of those mystery man spills all films. 01:44.605 --> 01:47.374 But first, Jacob Applebaum has to vet me 01:47.407 --> 01:50.543 within an inch of my life before allowing so much 01:50.577 --> 01:52.946 as my foot in his door with a camera. 02:00.988 --> 02:02.523 Okay. Shall I clap? 02:02.556 --> 02:04.324 We have picture, we have \hsound. Give us a clap. 02:07.594 --> 02:10.597 And technically it’s not even his door. 02:10.631 --> 02:13.901 \hMy camera and I only make it there on interview number two. 02:17.537 --> 02:20.673 Can you tell me about what landed you in this situation? 02:25.112 --> 02:27.181 Can you tell me anything about it? 02:31.485 --> 02:33.921 You gotta be a little bit more specific, I mean, 02:33.954 --> 02:35.456 because friends of mine we’re facing 02:39.660 --> 02:43.230 It’s a fucked up situation, but that’s, 02:43.263 --> 02:45.999 that’s the way the world works currently, especially. 02:55.475 --> 02:57.610 Yeah, different phones \hfor different things. 02:57.644 --> 03:00.280 Most of them have the microphones removed. 03:05.419 --> 03:07.221 Most of the computers that are in here, 03:12.893 --> 03:15.929 when his other life got interrupted. 03:17.564 --> 03:19.866 I mean, I also do other stuff here 03:19.900 --> 03:21.068 that has nothing to do with the PhD, 03:21.101 --> 03:22.369 as you can see from the crypto phone 03:26.239 --> 03:29.109 What can you tell me about the other work? 03:35.749 --> 03:38.518 I am beginning to wonder \hhow this is gonna work 03:40.253 --> 03:42.255 doesn’t want to talk about himself. 03:47.761 --> 03:50.530 \hNobody wants to talk about Jacob Applebaum. 04:05.712 --> 04:07.480 We had another cat named Fancy Bear, 04:07.514 --> 04:10.917 but she died in a terrible, somewhat mysterious accident 04:10.951 --> 04:15.088 in which I came home and found her in the window. 04:15.122 --> 04:16.857 She had somehow been on the balcony 04:16.890 --> 04:20.594 and then tried to jump back in and strangled herself. 04:24.631 --> 04:28.802 And it’s either because I didn’t bring the cats back inside 04:28.835 --> 04:31.237 or because someone was in the house. 04:31.271 --> 04:34.174 They were doing something they shouldn’t have been, right? 04:34.207 --> 04:36.976 But I remember very clearly putting these cats inside. 04:39.646 --> 04:41.715 It’s very difficult to talk about it 04:41.748 --> 04:45.552 essentially without sounding, well, 04:45.585 --> 04:47.821 like one is a bit mentally unstable. 05:01.234 --> 05:03.870 I don’t like using the term exile 05:03.904 --> 05:08.976 or self-imposed exile loosely. (dramatic music) 05:14.948 --> 05:17.984 I have no other passport, no other citizenship. 05:22.322 --> 05:24.124 I don’t live in the United States anymore 05:24.157 --> 05:27.594 because I have experienced extensive harassment 05:35.035 --> 05:38.672 and Germans often joke when they see my FBI files 05:40.240 --> 05:41.775 They often joke that the surveillance 05:41.808 --> 05:44.177 is much more advanced than the Stasi ever had. 05:50.951 --> 05:53.253 if I would be charged with the Espionage Act, 05:53.286 --> 05:55.822 that would be a very serious federal crime 05:55.856 --> 06:00.127 and it would carry more than my natural life in years. 06:04.364 --> 06:06.466 I can expect the Rosenberg treatment. 06:09.336 --> 06:11.138 The federal government had laid the crime 06:11.171 --> 06:13.173 at the doorstep of two native New Yorkers, 06:14.808 --> 06:17.044 and sends them to death in the electric chair 06:17.077 --> 06:19.580 to pay for their crime of treason. 06:19.613 --> 06:22.082 Mine is a country that has a history 06:22.115 --> 06:24.918 of killing the dissidents that it doesn’t like. 06:27.120 --> 06:29.289 it enables it to happen illegally 06:29.322 --> 06:31.224 or simply does it itself illegally. 06:39.733 --> 06:41.802 What do you mean by surveillance? 06:43.937 --> 06:47.607 Because it is not something that can be comprehended 06:52.245 --> 06:54.447 And looking back in its totality, 06:54.481 --> 06:57.884 because for a few minutes, say 15 minutes, 06:57.918 --> 07:00.554 you didn’t have that kind of oppressive surveillance. 07:03.290 --> 07:05.793 You didn’t have weird visits to your hotel rooms 07:09.029 --> 07:10.497 You didn’t have an undercover person 07:13.199 --> 07:14.767 You didn’t have your cell phone getting warm 07:18.738 --> 07:21.074 There’s a moment in which you really are pretty sure 07:21.107 --> 07:23.176 you’re completely alone and there’s cloud cover 07:24.878 --> 07:28.348 And it’s in that moment where you get to take a breath 07:28.381 --> 07:31.184 and then you see, say, the surveillance again. 07:31.217 --> 07:34.220 \hLike a person sits down next to you on the bench 07:34.254 --> 07:36.089 and it’s in that moment that you realize 07:36.122 --> 07:38.491 that was the moment and now it’s gone. 07:42.128 --> 07:44.697 And it is an overwhelming and terrible thing 07:44.731 --> 07:47.801 \hthat undermines your faith in the ability to trust anything. 07:47.834 --> 07:50.537 And what’s terrifying is that that’s 07:50.570 --> 07:53.273 not actually capturing it accurately 07:55.275 --> 07:57.410 I’m not actually able to explain that. 08:02.549 --> 08:05.685 that the FBI was approaching people to- 08:11.958 --> 08:16.496 \hYou can only laugh with this level of technical competence. 08:35.115 --> 08:38.318 around Jake’s world of constant surveillance. 08:39.753 --> 08:43.290 He offers me a demonstration in Israel, 08:43.323 --> 08:46.126 one of the places he’s trying to get citizenship. 08:49.195 --> 08:51.664 by filming this one building in particular. 08:55.368 --> 08:56.269 English? Yeah. 09:00.006 --> 09:01.941 It’s cool. You can’t film here. 09:08.748 --> 09:09.983 What are we- It’s the US Embassy. 09:10.016 --> 09:11.317 Oh, okay. Okay? 09:42.715 --> 09:45.184 \hI wonder how many times that jogger will jog by. 09:50.690 --> 09:52.926 If you see this guy three or four times, 09:52.959 --> 09:54.160 you know he’s not a jogger. All right. 09:54.194 --> 09:56.396 And the people in the car nearby, 09:56.429 --> 09:58.798 those are the people that are reporting on you. 10:00.366 --> 10:03.502 does somebody jog a loop for three hours, or is... 10:03.536 --> 10:08.007 While Jake tries to get me to understand jogging spies, 10:08.041 --> 10:11.878 something else starts happening involving this guy. 10:16.015 --> 10:18.618 \hHow about we duck in here and get a coffee? 10:24.591 --> 10:27.761 While my crew takes a break, Fuzzy sits down next to us, 10:27.794 --> 10:30.730 asks where we’re from and what we’re filming, 10:30.763 --> 10:33.099 then goes to the market across the street. 10:34.300 --> 10:35.601 And then he sits down in the middle of us 10:35.635 --> 10:37.137 so that you can listen \hto what’s being said. 10:37.170 --> 10:41.341 I mean, obviously that guy is not here for the coffee. 10:43.610 --> 10:46.813 \hJake says Fuzzy is a surveillance operative 10:52.986 --> 10:54.421 Do you remember I said he’s just talked to that guy? 10:55.922 --> 10:58.057 I walked by that guy because he’s speaking English 11:00.760 --> 11:01.661 And don’t look at him. You don’t need to look at him. 11:03.196 --> 11:04.698 Of course he is, because you fuckin’ looked at him. 11:04.731 --> 11:07.133 That’s what I’m trying to teach you. Don’t do that. 11:09.869 --> 11:12.772 They’re there, but they’re not there to hassle you. 11:18.044 --> 11:20.280 On the other hand, if they’re not doing surveillance, 11:21.814 --> 11:24.250 then you sort of look like a fuckin’ crazy person. 11:43.636 --> 11:45.805 But it is true that the guy with the fuzzy hair 11:45.838 --> 11:47.540 has never walked out of the market. 11:47.574 --> 11:51.611 And I did spend the last 25 minutes 11:56.015 --> 11:59.685 And what I think is they loop back through there. 12:03.389 --> 12:06.492 Global support strategy is US government 12:07.594 --> 12:11.698 related to diplomatic security stuff. (laughs) 12:11.731 --> 12:13.766 The point is, when you look around, 12:13.800 --> 12:16.136 you see it, it’s everywhere, you know? 12:22.208 --> 12:25.144 Okay, and now we got the guy who’s got a name tag on 12:25.178 --> 12:27.681 who was clearly working security somewhere. 12:28.881 --> 12:30.349 Yeah, there you go- Hi, excuse me? 12:30.383 --> 12:33.620 I was just wondering, what were you taking a picture for? 12:40.126 --> 12:41.094 Or used to- Really? 12:42.362 --> 12:44.998 So I’m trying to show this guy, the filmmaker, 12:45.031 --> 12:47.300 that when doing surveillance detection, 12:47.333 --> 12:50.803 there are lots of people who looks suspicious but aren’t. 12:50.837 --> 12:52.972 And so there’s a man who is watching us 13:01.447 --> 13:03.616 is really who they present themselves to be 13:11.124 --> 13:14.094 I can show you who’s watching us. It’s funny. 13:16.696 --> 13:19.899 Right now it’s through Stingrays. 13:19.932 --> 13:21.167 Are you familiar with the Stingray- 13:21.200 --> 13:22.501 Oh yeah. Technology? 13:26.139 --> 13:28.842 to another episode of "Cops, Court and Coffee." 13:30.243 --> 13:32.746 So a Stingray device is basically 13:32.779 --> 13:36.283 a cell phone surveillance device. 13:36.316 --> 13:37.784 Right now I have a machine in my back 13:37.817 --> 13:42.055 that contracts Stingray, but one of the foremost, um... 13:42.088 --> 13:44.057 Using Snoop Snitch or what are you using? 13:44.090 --> 13:48.027 Snoop Snitch, but also Cellebrite Inbound. 13:49.162 --> 13:50.330 Yeah. In your backpack? 13:51.597 --> 13:54.300 It’s time to envision the future of policing. 13:55.702 --> 13:58.405 By collecting and reviewing data from any source, 13:58.438 --> 14:00.507 making it available to anyone who needs it 14:02.575 --> 14:06.879 This is digital intelligence, a force multiplier. 14:08.815 --> 14:10.450 This is a very interesting corner 14:10.483 --> 14:14.087 since on this very corner we found a guy who used to do CNO. 14:17.623 --> 14:20.126 when they mean I break into your computer. 14:22.762 --> 14:26.699 NSA? Oh yeah, National Security Agency. 14:37.477 --> 14:40.046 Back in Berlin, I figure I might have earned 14:45.952 --> 14:48.455 Tell me about the work you did with WikiLeaks. 14:49.989 --> 14:53.226 \hIn general, the things that I’ve done in public 14:54.327 --> 14:57.063 are the things that I’m willing to talk about 14:57.096 --> 14:59.398 because everything else is currently being investigated 14:59.432 --> 15:00.967 by a grand jury where friends of mine 15:01.000 --> 15:04.637 have been coerced, threatened because it seems 15:04.670 --> 15:07.406 like the work process is essentially 15:07.440 --> 15:09.609 being criminalized and \hunder investigation. 15:11.110 --> 15:12.979 is I suspect one of the questions 15:14.514 --> 15:16.983 that’s ever worked near WikiLeaks as a journalist, 15:17.016 --> 15:21.621 so maybe a different question would be helpful. 15:23.189 --> 15:24.957 Marker. (clapper thuds) 15:27.493 --> 15:29.695 I decide to get a WikiLeaks refresher 15:29.729 --> 15:33.766 from a lawyer of Jake’s who also advises Julian Assange. 15:34.901 --> 15:37.504 Michael Ratner, who represented Julian, 15:37.537 --> 15:40.774 said first we lost the War Powers Act, 15:40.807 --> 15:44.511 then we lost the ability to challenge war in court. 15:44.544 --> 15:49.015 And now we have a president who can go to war anywhere. 15:51.083 --> 15:53.452 We have leakers, we have hackers, 15:53.486 --> 15:57.056 and that’s all we have left. (tense music) 15:58.090 --> 16:02.561 Iraq was a blood bath on every corner. 16:02.595 --> 16:04.397 And really WikiLeaks in the early days 16:04.430 --> 16:07.266 is a ragtag bunch of different people 16:07.300 --> 16:09.736 who believed that using journalism 16:09.769 --> 16:12.205 to solve world’s information problems 16:12.238 --> 16:15.408 would really make the world a much better place. 16:21.514 --> 16:24.517 by publishing news leaks and classified documents 16:27.386 --> 16:29.688 exposing things like American drones 16:43.202 --> 16:47.339 The Hillary Clinton documents released by WikiLeaks. 16:47.373 --> 16:50.676 Or leaking 30,000 of Hillary Clinton’s emails 16:53.246 --> 16:55.849 Stuff like that made Assange and WikiLeaks 17:00.920 --> 17:03.289 I wasn’t an employee of WikiLeaks. 17:03.322 --> 17:05.090 I was a person who was a massive, 17:05.124 --> 17:07.793 massive supporter helping with things. 17:07.827 --> 17:09.896 And I’ve worked with WikiLeaks quite extensively 17:11.597 --> 17:14.800 \hWell last night Assange was arrested in absentia 17:14.834 --> 17:17.904 by Sweden on two separate allegations 17:19.939 --> 17:22.275 But what lost Assange many supporters 17:22.308 --> 17:25.244 and forced him into the Ecuadorian embassy 17:34.353 --> 17:37.656 As we’re out filming, news from Sweden, 17:37.690 --> 17:41.027 which Jake seems to take very personally. 17:41.060 --> 17:43.195 I’m holding this press conference today 17:49.869 --> 17:52.071 When was it clear to you that the evidence 17:53.339 --> 17:54.841 Was it today or was it clear to you... 17:54.874 --> 17:58.444 Was it today? (laughs) Or was it 10 years ago? 17:59.946 --> 18:02.682 Before holding 10 years of press conferences 18:05.484 --> 18:08.520 In such a situation, the preliminary investigation 18:09.922 --> 18:12.958 and that is also what has happened today. 18:14.493 --> 18:17.429 Wow, that’s, I mean it’s just, like, 18:20.533 --> 18:22.735 they can’t convict him based on this evidence. 18:26.973 --> 18:30.643 10 years later, Julian will never, ever, ever have a chance 18:32.778 --> 18:35.414 And he has been maligned for a decade as a rapist 18:36.549 --> 18:38.684 \hand then never have the possibility of innocence 18:38.718 --> 18:41.221 is about breaking someone’s spirit. 18:42.388 --> 18:44.023 I know something about that and it changes you 18:52.331 --> 18:54.099 It’s the simplest case of the world to describe, 18:55.768 --> 18:59.372 because people come back with, well, isn’t he a rapist? 18:59.405 --> 19:01.741 Wasn’t he, didn’t he hit his cat? 19:01.774 --> 19:05.344 I mean there’s all kind of stupid tales that are made up. 19:11.584 --> 19:14.020 There are people that would like to dehumanize me, 19:14.053 --> 19:17.056 to call me a monster, who say that my support 19:17.089 --> 19:20.292 of Julian Assange is to support a monster. 19:22.928 --> 19:25.831 It’s time to call out WikiLeaks for what it really is. 19:25.865 --> 19:27.900 A non-state hostile intelligence service, 19:27.933 --> 19:31.036 often abetted by state actors like Russia. 19:31.070 --> 19:33.739 WikiLeaks walks like a hostile intelligence service 19:33.773 --> 19:37.210 and talks like a hostile intelligence service. 19:39.245 --> 19:43.382 It was something that was just made up out of whole cloth 19:43.416 --> 19:48.488 and it was made up and it was meant that you had no rights. 19:50.856 --> 19:52.925 make common cause with dictators today. 19:54.226 --> 19:56.195 Yes, they try unsuccessful to cloak themselves 19:56.228 --> 19:58.797 in their actions, language of liberty and privacy. 19:58.831 --> 20:00.633 But in reality, they champion nothing 20:03.569 --> 20:05.704 (journalists chattering) (cameras clicking) 20:07.206 --> 20:10.209 that are in some way working with Julian Assange. 20:11.610 --> 20:14.780 In 2010, that’s clearly me. There’s no question about it. 20:16.148 --> 20:19.618 For example, when we release the WikiLeak spy files... 20:19.652 --> 20:22.221 These systems are used to hunt people down 20:29.061 --> 20:31.564 it not only says Assange and WikiLeaks, 20:34.100 --> 20:36.569 And if there’s a charge like the indictment, 20:36.602 --> 20:40.039 it’s "And others," so that there’s always room 20:41.874 --> 20:44.543 And that’s quite clear, and they do that on purpose 20:45.945 --> 20:48.347 and they know that they are potentially 20:48.380 --> 20:50.782 going to be included in a new version 20:50.816 --> 20:52.618 of the indictment or another case. 20:54.720 --> 20:56.822 We can no longer allow Assange and his colleagues 20:56.856 --> 20:59.926 the latitude to use free speech values against us, 20:59.959 --> 21:01.394 to give them the space to crush us 21:01.427 --> 21:03.396 with misappropriated secrets is a perversion 21:03.429 --> 21:06.098 of what our great Constitution stands for. 21:12.071 --> 21:15.575 a good indicator that my fate is tied to Julian’s. 21:25.084 --> 21:27.820 How did his fate get tied to Julian’s? 21:28.921 --> 21:31.490 Where does one start down such a path? 21:37.296 --> 21:41.267 A couple of other inhabitants of this movement, 21:41.300 --> 21:45.771 community, for internet freedom, privacy... 21:47.072 --> 21:49.841 Finally agree after much \hencrypted arm twisting 21:49.875 --> 21:53.612 to talk to me about this world that spawned Jake. 21:55.047 --> 21:57.950 Mitch Altman is an old friend of Jake’s. 21:59.151 --> 22:03.222 Nadim Kobeissi, not so old, not so friend. 22:09.461 --> 22:11.430 There’s the cliche of the hacker, 22:11.463 --> 22:15.267 of the the lone teenager adolescent, whatever, 22:15.301 --> 22:17.870 with the hoodie and crouched over their laptop. 22:21.373 --> 22:24.042 People at these conferences and at hacker spaces, 22:24.076 --> 22:27.112 it’s predominantly introverted geeks. 22:29.481 --> 22:31.616 I’ve been an introverted geek all my life. 22:31.650 --> 22:35.420 I coined the term nerds from broken homes community. 22:41.627 --> 22:44.697 Jake had given this incredible talk. 22:44.730 --> 22:47.566 So I started blogging about my travel in Iraq. 22:47.600 --> 22:51.170 I had been traveling with Arab guards from Baghdad. 22:51.203 --> 22:55.074 I gave a talk to the CCC, the Chaos Computer Club, 22:55.107 --> 22:57.710 about war zones and disaster areas. 22:59.411 --> 23:01.780 "Have you had anyone in your family killed?" 23:01.814 --> 23:04.417 And I talked a little bit about my dad’s situation as well. 23:05.885 --> 23:08.187 So as a result, in American society, 23:10.356 --> 23:14.260 He held nothing back about sharing of himself 23:14.293 --> 23:17.897 stuff that other people would consider super shameful. 23:19.832 --> 23:22.601 And it makes the talk much more meaningful 23:22.635 --> 23:25.004 ’cause we’re all alive, you know? 23:26.872 --> 23:28.674 This right here is the motivator for me 23:28.707 --> 23:33.145 to stop contributing to a world full of bullshit and evil. 23:39.151 --> 23:41.053 I started doing contracting for Tor. 23:42.354 --> 23:47.159 I was attending a computer hacker convention called DEF CON 23:47.192 --> 23:51.296 and I met Roger Dingledine and Nick Mathewson. 23:51.330 --> 23:53.532 Nick and Roger started \hTor. They wrote Tor. 23:54.800 --> 23:57.636 Neither Roger Dingledine nor Nick Mathewson 23:57.670 --> 24:01.073 responded to multiple requests to talk about Jake. 24:04.143 --> 24:05.411 I have to ask my fashion consultant. 24:09.515 --> 24:12.818 Tor’s former executive director, did. 24:12.851 --> 24:15.320 At first we were just a handful of developers 24:16.789 --> 24:18.491 and we were totally unprepared for all, 24:18.524 --> 24:20.259 like all the politics and the rest of the world 24:24.964 --> 24:27.366 and we’re going to talk to you about things 24:27.399 --> 24:30.102 \hthat governments and corporations have done 24:30.135 --> 24:32.170 to try to censor the Tor network. 24:37.409 --> 24:41.146 It gives you the ability to surf the web anonymously. 24:41.180 --> 24:43.449 No logins, no passwords, no fees. 24:44.850 --> 24:46.518 Somewhere between a quarter of a million 24:48.387 --> 24:52.024 Tor makes it very difficult, in particular, 24:53.659 --> 24:56.529 what you’re searching for on the internet. 24:57.863 --> 25:01.266 It’s currently the largest anonymity network in the world 25:01.300 --> 25:04.303 that is publicly available and free of cost. 25:04.336 --> 25:06.939 If you build a circuit that goes from California 25:06.972 --> 25:09.041 to Iceland through Zimbabwe exit... 25:09.074 --> 25:12.878 The network is a series of computers all around the world 25:15.481 --> 25:17.783 and it goes through those volunteer relays, 25:17.816 --> 25:20.218 they’re called Tor relays, around the world. 25:25.024 --> 25:27.527 and so it’s very, very \hdifficult for anyone, 25:29.194 --> 25:33.432 to find what you have been searching for if you’re a target. 25:33.465 --> 25:35.767 In a sense, I was a naive and young person 25:35.801 --> 25:37.670 and I really believed in the mission. 25:37.703 --> 25:39.305 What I’m hoping to also point out 25:39.338 --> 25:41.841 is that this is everyone’s department. 25:41.874 --> 25:44.443 There really isn’t a geographical border. 25:48.847 --> 25:51.049 and you are gonna have the ability 25:54.153 --> 25:56.756 and teach them how to use anonymity tools. 26:02.795 --> 26:06.198 It’s also used for bypassing, in many cases, firewalls. 26:08.100 --> 26:10.502 it used to be that the \hidea was you wouldn’t 26:13.372 --> 26:17.109 What essentially Tor would do in those cases 26:17.142 --> 26:19.611 is it could maybe bypass censorship 26:19.645 --> 26:21.780 where it wasn’t clear you were using Tor at all. 26:21.814 --> 26:24.016 If every single person in this room 26:24.049 --> 26:26.485 went home and started a Tor node, 26:26.518 --> 26:30.288 you would start a process that the FBI called going dark. 26:33.725 --> 26:35.126 I mean it was just the most thrilling work 26:36.361 --> 26:39.064 Like we built a grassroots momentum. 26:44.536 --> 26:46.238 they used it to reach out to Facebook 26:46.271 --> 26:49.241 when Facebook was blocked but the Tor network wasn’t. 26:52.778 --> 26:55.281 One of the things the government of Egypt said was 26:55.314 --> 26:57.449 we shut off the internet because of Tor and Facebook 27:00.452 --> 27:02.721 By specifically naming Tor in that, 27:02.754 --> 27:04.689 the world press took notice and it was like, 27:06.525 --> 27:08.527 Here to discuss this with me is Jacob Applebaum, 27:10.462 --> 27:12.831 Okay, so- Hang on one second, 27:14.133 --> 27:15.568 Angela Richter is a theater director 27:15.601 --> 27:18.504 and journalist deeply immersed in this community 27:18.537 --> 27:22.508 who agreed, after some hesitation, to talk about Jake. 27:23.609 --> 27:24.810 There’s no question that understanding 27:24.843 --> 27:26.144 how to use those computer systems 27:26.178 --> 27:27.613 and being able to navigate them... 27:27.646 --> 27:29.781 After his talks, he would sit there 27:29.815 --> 27:34.720 and be just this very charismatic, open to everyone person 27:34.753 --> 27:36.788 so everyone could come and approach him. 27:36.822 --> 27:38.791 I wanted to stop for just a second 27:40.092 --> 27:42.695 and have everybody stand up and shake. 27:43.829 --> 27:45.297 It was kind of hippie-esque. (chuckles) 27:45.330 --> 27:49.501 \hIt was a little bit of feeling like I would say 27:49.535 --> 27:52.671 Woodstock 2.0 or something, I don’t know. 27:52.704 --> 27:55.307 I prefer to sit in a circle and have people share things 27:55.340 --> 27:57.275 \hand have a discussion, but since this is how... 27:57.309 --> 28:01.146 And rather quickly he became the sort of superstar 28:04.816 --> 28:09.521 the internet security and policymaking world. 28:11.156 --> 28:14.226 He was also really good at getting press about himself. 28:16.762 --> 28:19.331 Oh yeah, here’s Tor, here’s why you should be using Tor. 28:19.364 --> 28:20.665 So that was really how he, you know, 28:23.135 --> 28:25.070 I’m Dmytri Kleiner. That’s Jake Applebaum. 28:25.103 --> 28:27.105 So I feel like non-violent direct action 28:28.840 --> 28:31.009 You’re watching someone taking a brave stance 28:31.043 --> 28:32.278 on something that you care about, 28:32.311 --> 28:33.913 that you think is good for society, 28:33.946 --> 28:37.316 against all odds and against powerful institutions 28:37.349 --> 28:39.785 that perhaps have conflicting interests. 28:39.818 --> 28:41.687 Having the ability to reach a website 28:41.720 --> 28:44.523 that is beyond the power of the state. 28:44.556 --> 28:46.525 I felt like that community was lucky 28:46.558 --> 28:49.828 to have someone of this sort of eloquence 28:51.797 --> 28:53.766 The control structure has become one 28:53.799 --> 28:56.468 that breaks into things and spies on people. 28:56.501 --> 28:59.537 Everyone wanted to speak \hwith him after a while. 28:59.571 --> 29:03.442 Increasingly he became something like a rockstar, you know? 29:04.943 --> 29:07.245 You go outside and you say fuck this corporation 29:07.279 --> 29:09.281 that’s sponsoring an event about free speech 29:09.314 --> 29:12.017 but they actually, like, you know, censor the internet. 29:12.050 --> 29:14.152 (audience applauding) Before we take questions, 29:14.186 --> 29:16.255 can everybody stand up, follow orders? 29:24.029 --> 29:27.599 he played that up, attracting people to him 29:27.633 --> 29:32.705 who he could definitely have sex with later, hopefully, 29:37.709 --> 29:41.947 like rockstars’ groupies, star fuckers. (chuckles) 29:43.982 --> 29:45.584 and we need to know how to do it safely. 29:45.617 --> 29:47.552 And we need to find ways of securely doing it. 29:47.586 --> 29:49.254 The cryptography is good for the most part. 29:49.288 --> 29:51.490 I really witnessed women and not only women, 29:51.523 --> 29:54.593 but also men throwing themselves at him, you know? 29:54.626 --> 29:58.463 Do we have a right to privacy, to dignity, to agency? 29:58.497 --> 30:02.301 And he was intelligent and he was capable. 30:04.202 --> 30:06.071 give this movement energy, you know? 30:06.104 --> 30:09.074 That was something which I found very astonishing. 30:10.175 --> 30:13.045 There’s computers that are worth breaking into 30:13.078 --> 30:15.213 and I highly encourage you to consider 30:15.247 --> 30:18.083 that taking direct action, non-violent direct action, 30:18.116 --> 30:22.153 when people are lying is a righteous thing to do. 30:26.325 --> 30:30.362 He had a certain charisma and brilliance 30:30.395 --> 30:33.632 and ability that made it really possible 30:33.665 --> 30:37.169 for him to become a leader of this group, 30:38.770 --> 30:41.373 But the point is not to set out to martyr yourself. 30:42.874 --> 30:45.009 are you gonna stick around this time, Julian? 30:45.043 --> 30:48.680 I dunno. I’m waiting for \hthe quantum hand, Jake. 30:48.714 --> 30:52.751 \hPerhaps he could become the next Julian Assange. 30:59.524 --> 31:01.226 All right, so what do you wanna talk about? 31:01.259 --> 31:05.630 Tell me about the 2010 Hope Conference. 31:09.368 --> 31:11.604 you appear in public for WikiLeaks. 31:15.574 --> 31:17.810 and the plan was for Julian to come to America 31:20.679 --> 31:23.015 Well this is the the Saturday keynote. 31:24.916 --> 31:29.154 about when I first met Julian Assange of Wikileaks. 31:29.187 --> 31:30.789 And I knew we were gonna get targeted 31:30.822 --> 31:33.825 in a really big way because what was the talk about? 31:33.859 --> 31:36.028 It was about Chelsea Manning’s arrest. 31:36.061 --> 31:38.196 The Pentagon will press criminal charges 31:39.598 --> 31:41.867 who allegedly transferred classified data. 31:41.900 --> 31:44.236 \hHow did Wikileaks get this classified video? 31:52.444 --> 31:54.179 Things were getting really hot at that point, 31:56.815 --> 31:59.017 until the last minute Emmanuel Goldstein 32:00.852 --> 32:04.055 There is a WikiLeaks presentation today. 32:04.089 --> 32:06.124 There is a WikiLeaks keynote address. 32:07.692 --> 32:10.061 if they had any names on any warrants, it was for Julian. 32:10.095 --> 32:13.098 I would like to introduce WikiLeaks. 32:20.338 --> 32:22.607 And then I walked up on stage and pulled off the hood 32:22.641 --> 32:24.676 and unzipped the jacket and had a t-shirt on 32:26.778 --> 32:28.546 Thanks for leaking those documents. 32:29.748 --> 32:31.250 I gave a talk in public for Wikileaks. 32:33.485 --> 32:36.621 that is going to be able to make the most amount of change. 32:37.689 --> 32:39.090 There were some people that clearly 32:39.124 --> 32:41.393 were making their way towards the front of the stage. 32:43.195 --> 32:45.230 Real official, scary kinds of people. 32:46.898 --> 32:49.200 in domestic and international surveillance. 32:52.037 --> 32:57.009 I felt like I was about to have an aneurysm. 33:00.679 --> 33:03.015 Think about how you can make a difference in the world 33:03.048 --> 33:06.151 and then don’t just think about it, do it. 33:06.184 --> 33:10.822 (audience applauding) (audience cheering) 33:16.094 --> 33:19.030 Now you might be asking why would you do this talk? 33:19.064 --> 33:22.868 And I have for my entire 11 years since doing this talk 33:22.901 --> 33:24.936 have also asked myself that question. 33:29.741 --> 33:33.144 So Jake starts doing more and more activist stuff. 33:33.178 --> 33:36.314 Meanwhile Tor, you know, I don’t want to make it sound like 33:36.348 --> 33:37.716 the State Department pulling all the strings, 33:37.749 --> 33:40.885 but they had a lot of sway at Tor 33:40.919 --> 33:43.655 as to this is acceptable, not acceptable. 33:46.258 --> 33:48.727 We wrote a bunch of proposals to the state department 33:48.760 --> 33:51.496 for their new internet freedom program. 33:51.530 --> 33:56.135 We won 15 million and then State Department’s attitude was 33:57.702 --> 34:00.672 You’re gonna do what we tell you to do. (chuckles) 34:02.107 --> 34:03.842 to what has happened to Chelsea Manning... 34:03.875 --> 34:05.777 Turns out he’s involved with the Wikileaks. 34:05.810 --> 34:07.912 State Department, they’re like, whoa. 34:22.527 --> 34:24.929 I took the hard drive out of my computer. 34:45.317 --> 34:47.753 And there are two guys inside that booth who say, 34:47.786 --> 34:50.188 "Is that what a terrorist looks like today?" 34:55.560 --> 34:58.997 They took me in a room, stripped off most of my clothes. 34:59.030 --> 35:02.000 He cupped my balls, stuck his fingers up to my ass, 35:10.375 --> 35:13.545 They primarily focused on my political views, 35:14.813 --> 35:16.248 be let back into the United States 35:17.549 --> 35:19.017 I wouldn’t be allowed to call a lawyer. 35:19.050 --> 35:21.052 I was not allowed to use the bathroom. 35:21.086 --> 35:22.854 But they did give me lots of water 35:24.990 --> 35:27.593 because the goal there was to make me piss myself 35:27.626 --> 35:29.895 and become ashamed or to put me under pressure 35:34.666 --> 35:36.768 And of course they got to the laptop. 35:38.870 --> 35:41.239 "Tell us the password to your hard drive." 35:42.974 --> 35:47.846 \hAnd I told him, "Hm, there’s no hard drive in my computer." 35:49.314 --> 35:53.218 And they’d kind of look at each other like what the fuck? 35:53.251 --> 35:55.553 And I was like, "When you get really good with computers, 35:57.522 --> 35:59.424 And this, like, just blew their minds. 36:04.596 --> 36:07.132 he kept talking about how I was gonna be raped in prison 36:07.165 --> 36:09.467 and how hackers like to think they’re tough. 36:12.370 --> 36:14.906 I told them I’m gonna make a big stink about this. 36:14.939 --> 36:17.708 And he’s like, "Yeah, well we’re gonna put you on lists." 36:19.044 --> 36:20.879 Every time I flew anywhere in the United States, 36:20.912 --> 36:22.680 they used the system to harass me. 36:25.850 --> 36:29.787 My customs and border protection files, specifically, 36:29.821 --> 36:32.390 is hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of pages long 36:32.424 --> 36:35.427 and over 300 of those pages are fully redacted. 36:39.164 --> 36:41.733 we still receive documents that don’t even tell me 36:47.772 --> 36:50.842 ever told me what it was that I was alleged to have done. 37:02.454 --> 37:04.289 that the US was interested in him. 37:19.070 --> 37:21.205 Can we talk a bit about Edward Snowden 37:21.239 --> 37:26.444 and tell me about when you first became aware of him? 37:32.951 --> 37:34.586 Lots of DOJ people want to know the answer 37:36.688 --> 37:37.856 Laura told me that she had something 37:39.824 --> 37:42.894 At the time, Jake tells me he’d been collaborating 37:42.927 --> 37:46.931 extensively with the filmmaker \hand journalist Laura Poitras. 37:48.299 --> 37:50.368 She didn’t want to talk about Jake for this film. 37:54.005 --> 37:56.608 I got an email from an an anonymous source... 37:56.641 --> 37:58.009 And she said that she’d been working 37:58.042 --> 38:00.578 on cultivating a source and she wanted me 38:01.880 --> 38:04.816 We had evidence of of government illegality 38:04.849 --> 38:08.019 and NSA abuse and mass surveillance. 38:08.052 --> 38:11.556 It was kind of like imagine you have a person 38:11.589 --> 38:13.024 inside the intelligence community 38:13.057 --> 38:14.759 and you can just see behind the curtain 38:14.793 --> 38:17.462 and ask every question you’ve always wanted to ask. 38:18.730 --> 38:21.700 My name’s Ed Snowden. I’m 29 years old. 38:24.435 --> 38:26.971 as an infrastructure analyst for NSA. 38:28.339 --> 38:30.775 I was in touch with him while he was in Hong Kong. 38:30.809 --> 38:34.579 When I arrived in Berlin, I had one suitcase with me. 38:34.612 --> 38:38.282 It just became incredibly clear to me 38:38.316 --> 38:40.418 that my next flight into the United States 38:40.451 --> 38:42.787 would have been a really bad one. 38:42.821 --> 38:45.824 And that’s when documents started to drop. 38:48.293 --> 38:51.429 A former CIA employee has come forward 38:51.462 --> 38:54.532 as the source behind one of the biggest leaks in US history. 38:54.566 --> 38:58.270 Edward Snowden says he did it to inform the public. 38:58.303 --> 39:02.107 Edward Snowden is now an international outlaw. 39:02.140 --> 39:03.808 I was there to help vet the source. 39:03.842 --> 39:06.111 I looked at it and I wanted to help publish the things 39:14.385 --> 39:17.054 Jake became more and more famous. 39:18.790 --> 39:21.793 the full rosters of everyone working at the NSA. 39:23.528 --> 39:25.964 that it was more of a management question, 39:25.997 --> 39:27.699 like how do we get the right people 39:29.133 --> 39:31.435 What Snowden has revealed is, in fact, 39:34.005 --> 39:36.574 We got six Spiegel cover articles in a row. 39:41.145 --> 39:43.047 When that worked- Who is we, by the way? 39:46.184 --> 39:48.753 I’m saying we intentionally to obfuscate. 39:50.555 --> 39:53.625 Probably the biggest story that I personally broke 39:58.963 --> 40:02.099 was spying on German chancellor Angela Merkel for years. 40:03.301 --> 40:05.470 That was a huge scandal in Germany 40:18.082 --> 40:20.017 For this, I understand that Obama 40:26.691 --> 40:28.059 He would start getting more and more press 40:28.092 --> 40:29.460 ’cause he’d be more and more, like, 40:29.494 --> 40:31.062 we need to overthrow the US government. 40:32.530 --> 40:34.399 by the government you wanna overthrow. 40:36.501 --> 40:38.737 And he’s like, "No, I wanna be famous." 40:38.770 --> 40:40.538 Almost every time the State Department 40:40.571 --> 40:43.841 cut my paycheck through the Tor Project 40:43.875 --> 40:45.543 to work on anything related to WikiLeaks, 40:45.576 --> 40:48.779 well, it was State Department funded. (laughs) 40:55.353 --> 40:58.857 There were a lot of people from the programmers 40:58.890 --> 41:03.695 or hackers seen moving to Berlin from all over the world. 41:08.099 --> 41:10.401 I think everybody wanted to be different 41:10.435 --> 41:15.507 than the mainstream and so people were experimenting a lot 41:17.208 --> 41:22.080 with sex and this and that. (upbeat music) 41:27.885 --> 41:31.689 I wouldn’t say that there’s a vibe of free love. 41:34.759 --> 41:38.529 But what I would say is that consenting adults 41:38.563 --> 41:40.365 certainly have interesting parties. 41:49.640 --> 41:53.744 because on one hand I felt everyone wanted to be so free 41:57.015 --> 41:58.717 On the other hand, I felt there was a lot 41:58.750 --> 42:02.020 \hof repression behind it and that everything 42:11.362 --> 42:13.898 And there were, like, orgies and the like. 42:14.966 --> 42:17.435 I have heard of the fact that, yeah, 42:17.468 --> 42:21.172 so I’ve heard of that, \hbut I never saw that. 42:24.175 --> 42:26.944 I don’t think I really seemed like the type, you know? 42:28.346 --> 42:31.516 And such an invitation was thankfully never extended. 42:32.817 --> 42:34.786 not because I wanted to take part, actually, 42:34.819 --> 42:36.954 because I’m really not interested in it, 42:41.826 --> 42:46.898 Jake’s sexuality is way not mainstream, and mine neither. 42:49.634 --> 42:52.770 I’ve been queer all my life and with Jake, 42:52.804 --> 42:57.208 it’s all over and he’s always been poly 42:57.241 --> 43:00.277 since I’ve known him and \hprobably all his life. 43:01.579 --> 43:03.948 It was not polygamy because that’s related to sex. 43:03.981 --> 43:06.383 It was polyamorous because that is something 43:06.417 --> 43:08.419 which is related to be in love with many people, 43:12.090 --> 43:15.026 60, 70, 80 people would be attending the party 43:15.059 --> 43:17.929 and on the top floor there would be all of the people, 43:17.962 --> 43:21.032 you know, drinking glasses of champagne, 43:21.065 --> 43:23.701 eating Dutch olliebollen and, you know, 43:23.734 --> 43:26.704 one floor down in that there would be, you know, 43:26.737 --> 43:30.140 people that were lovers or partners that would play around. 43:31.909 --> 43:34.712 My girlfriend at the time, she was sleeping with a woman, 43:34.745 --> 43:38.215 she was sleeping with a man, I was sleeping with a woman. 43:38.249 --> 43:41.419 At some point everything just became too much, you know? 43:41.452 --> 43:45.122 All the people who wanted to be close to him, 43:45.156 --> 43:47.558 all the women and men who also wanted 43:47.592 --> 43:50.228 to have sexual relationship with him and so on, 43:50.261 --> 43:53.131 and then he started to change, you know. 43:59.237 --> 44:01.673 In my opinion there’s not only nothing wrong with it, 44:01.706 --> 44:06.778 but also this is a safe, sane and consensual party 44:07.845 --> 44:09.513 where adults are having sex with each other. 44:11.716 --> 44:16.354 And for me, all this constellation became very explosive. 44:17.889 --> 44:22.660 He had very little experience in how to handle things 44:26.931 --> 44:30.168 I was even saying to him, at some point, 44:30.201 --> 44:34.839 all the parties with sex involved and so on, 44:34.872 --> 44:39.076 it’s an open invitation for the secret services 44:39.110 --> 44:43.848 to kind of get in and just destroy the whole movement. 44:45.082 --> 44:47.685 it’s just so in the open, they can’t do it. 44:50.788 --> 44:53.924 I don’t know. I thought it was naive, you know? 45:06.938 --> 45:08.907 We had a Tor developer meeting in Munich 45:08.940 --> 45:10.475 and I had a really bad experience 45:14.245 --> 45:17.749 People were freaking out because Ed Snowden, you know, 45:17.782 --> 45:20.084 had done his, like, whistleblower debut 45:20.117 --> 45:23.053 and you could see a Tor sticker in the background. 45:23.087 --> 45:24.956 So people that were in those worlds 45:24.989 --> 45:26.457 were like really worried the heat 45:29.560 --> 45:31.529 The blow black from that was just so big 45:31.562 --> 45:34.532 that it really broke a \hlot of relationships. 45:34.565 --> 45:36.634 But what’s important is to just remember 45:41.839 --> 45:44.875 the majority of the funding was coming from grant writing 45:44.909 --> 45:48.946 and grant proposals from USAID or the State Department 45:48.980 --> 45:51.483 as part of the Hillary \hClinton 21st Century 45:55.386 --> 45:58.522 we have awarded more than $20 million in competitive grants 45:58.556 --> 46:01.392 to support a burgeoning group of technologists 46:01.425 --> 46:03.928 and activists working at the cutting edge 46:03.961 --> 46:06.163 at the fight against internet repression. 46:07.965 --> 46:11.068 Lots of US government money, lots of soft power. 46:13.237 --> 46:15.005 So now you have an employee, you know, 46:15.039 --> 46:17.875 of Tor being funded by the US government 46:17.908 --> 46:20.444 actively leaking secrets of the US government 46:20.478 --> 46:23.214 and that was a pretty clear line. 46:23.247 --> 46:26.317 The State Department was like, you know, WTF? 46:30.187 --> 46:32.256 People who had been somewhat friendly to Tor, 46:32.290 --> 46:34.092 whether the law enforcement or military, 46:35.526 --> 46:37.294 "I can’t be publicly associated with Tor anymore. 46:38.829 --> 46:41.398 This is the last time we’ll ever meet. Good luck." 46:45.803 --> 46:47.238 They’re like, "Sorry, we can’t support this 46:53.311 --> 46:55.313 holy crap, what the hell just happened? 47:01.419 --> 47:03.922 Nick Mathewson talked with me and asked, 47:03.954 --> 47:06.256 isn’t it the case that my employment contract 47:06.290 --> 47:09.059 forbids me from working for other people? 47:11.662 --> 47:13.430 And he was unhappy about the fact 47:13.464 --> 47:16.233 that I had any involvement with disclosing any information, 47:17.535 --> 47:19.904 and like being involved with the Snowden leaks. 47:24.108 --> 47:26.477 started when we discovered that a person 47:26.510 --> 47:30.447 who worked for the CIA undercover of the Department of State 47:30.481 --> 47:33.184 had tried to become a manager at Tor. 47:35.986 --> 47:38.021 the State Department was one of our funders. 47:38.055 --> 47:39.990 So when someone comes from the State Department 47:40.024 --> 47:42.226 and says that they wanted to work at Tor, 47:42.259 --> 47:44.828 what they are really also kind of saying 47:44.862 --> 47:47.631 is this is what the money people want. 47:47.665 --> 47:50.201 And so this is a really uncomfortable situation 47:53.104 --> 47:57.809 Karen Riley, a colleague who was formerly in the US Army, 48:00.311 --> 48:03.080 He was a friend of Karen. I met him in DC. 48:05.116 --> 48:06.884 Karen’s a veteran, he’s a veteran. 48:08.119 --> 48:10.555 And I had said, "Oh, are you from the part 48:10.588 --> 48:12.256 of the State Department that wants 48:12.289 --> 48:14.691 to shoot me and Julian in the back of the head?" 48:14.725 --> 48:16.860 And he smiles and says something to the effect of, 48:16.894 --> 48:18.929 "Oh no, that’s another department." 48:20.731 --> 48:23.400 Well, it’s a federal 10 year felony for me to tell you. 48:23.434 --> 48:27.838 I’ll just go with the guy that worked for the CIA at Tor. 48:36.380 --> 48:38.482 Everything seemed to be going smoothly. 48:38.516 --> 48:41.219 And then Roger sends the email to the board, 48:50.728 --> 48:52.964 on the Tor internal mailing list. 48:52.997 --> 48:56.067 \hAnd it was, you know, 10 Tor people asking me to say things 48:56.100 --> 48:58.903 because they felt that I would ask things they wouldn’t. 49:07.178 --> 49:09.614 What role did you have in the drone strike program? 49:12.516 --> 49:14.084 These were the questions people wanted to know 49:14.118 --> 49:17.388 now that they knew they were dealing with a real CIA person. 49:17.421 --> 49:19.657 \hAnd of course, you know, it’s just like, this is ridiculous. 49:19.690 --> 49:20.925 Who are you? What are you doing here? 49:24.962 --> 49:28.499 We work with people in South America who, you know, 49:28.532 --> 49:31.468 were killed by CIA funded right wing death squads. 49:31.502 --> 49:33.004 Like, their family members were murdered. 49:33.037 --> 49:35.172 This is a total devastation to the Tor Project 49:35.206 --> 49:37.108 to be associated with the intelligence service. 49:37.141 --> 49:41.512 Nothing personal. (tense dramatic music) 49:41.545 --> 49:43.814 \hAt the time, all the paranoid people in Tor 49:50.654 --> 49:53.857 And I thought, I don’t think we should hire the guy. 49:53.891 --> 49:57.027 Later someone, not me, really not me, 49:57.061 --> 49:59.497 leaked the chat log and put it on the internet. 50:01.599 --> 50:03.935 Sorry David, but you’re the sacrificial lamb here, 50:03.968 --> 50:05.770 so we’re gonna rescind our offer. 50:07.037 --> 50:10.574 So CIA guy sued Tor for discrimination against veterans. 50:13.611 --> 50:16.481 And then I knew my time at Tor was over. 50:28.325 --> 50:30.961 Early 2015 we went to Valencia, Spain 50:30.995 --> 50:32.763 for the Internet Freedom Festival. 50:34.098 --> 50:39.170 I have gotten the impression that Valencia 2015... 50:47.111 --> 50:51.349 I actually arrived there with 1,440 little magnetic balls 50:51.382 --> 50:54.352 \hthat I was going to use for a certain discussion 50:54.385 --> 50:56.821 about workflow in a presentation. 50:56.854 --> 50:58.656 Those balls never got picked up at the front desk. 50:58.689 --> 51:00.558 They’re still probably sitting there. 51:06.564 --> 51:08.866 Well, you know, long story short is that Karen Riley 51:08.899 --> 51:13.170 from the Tor Project told the human resources person 51:14.505 --> 51:17.375 that there had been a rape by me. 51:30.988 --> 51:34.091 You know, it’s, we, he must be gone immediately. 51:34.124 --> 51:36.994 None of us can really go forward unless he’s gone. 51:42.066 --> 51:45.636 And the HR person, of course, had a meltdown. 51:45.669 --> 51:50.474 You know, a lot of drama and upset and distraction around, 51:52.443 --> 51:57.248 you know, allegations, discomfort with Jacob Applebaum. 52:01.251 --> 52:02.486 "I don’t know what the hell she’s talking about. 52:06.557 --> 52:08.526 I did my best to get to the bottom of it. 52:09.860 --> 52:12.196 \hif there’s supposedly a crime that occurred, 52:13.998 --> 52:16.501 Is there like a time? When did it happen? 52:18.502 --> 52:21.572 You know, has anyone followed the policy to report it? 52:21.605 --> 52:22.706 And when you have a bunch of anarchists, 52:30.614 --> 52:33.684 And at that point, I did not hear anything 52:33.717 --> 52:35.619 which persuaded me that there was 52:35.653 --> 52:39.524 or that I could see in any likelihood that there was undue, 52:39.556 --> 52:43.260 improper, sexualized or other vile, 52:43.293 --> 52:47.330 any sort of harmful activity towards another human being 52:47.364 --> 52:49.533 other than the crassness in the workplace. 52:56.040 --> 52:58.476 No one’s filed a complaint, no one’s followed the policy. 53:01.378 --> 53:04.448 you gotta get Jake and Karen to, like, be civil, 53:04.481 --> 53:07.384 do something or we are actually gonna pull your funding 53:07.418 --> 53:09.453 because it’s making everybody look bad. 53:10.521 --> 53:12.523 Karen tells me she won’t talk about Jake 53:19.830 --> 53:23.067 I just thought it was Karen doing something terrible. 53:23.100 --> 53:25.336 But in retrospect I think it was a lot more than Karen 53:28.038 --> 53:30.173 These people were taking their shot at me. 53:43.987 --> 53:45.622 Essentially what is happening today 53:45.656 --> 53:48.125 is a major, major development point 53:51.195 --> 53:55.533 And that is that Julian is in a British courtroom 53:55.566 --> 53:59.537 \hright now as we speak and they are currently 53:59.570 --> 54:01.338 going through the motions where the prosecutor 54:01.371 --> 54:04.341 has been laying out the case for extradition 54:07.244 --> 54:08.312 United States of America V. Assange. 54:09.580 --> 54:13.384 Julian Assange is facing \han 18 count indictment 54:13.417 --> 54:17.554 that pretends that the United States has no Constitution. 54:20.624 --> 54:24.228 After seven years of asylum in the Ecuadorian embassy, 54:26.463 --> 54:28.732 allowing for extradition to the US 54:28.766 --> 54:31.335 where he faces espionage charges. 54:32.803 --> 54:35.572 I mean, it’s really only the enemy of the US. 54:36.673 --> 54:40.143 Ultimately it took three \hdifferent indictments. 54:41.478 --> 54:45.582 Actually Jake is a character in the third indictment. 54:46.884 --> 54:50.388 Accompanying Julian at this speech he gave 54:50.420 --> 54:54.758 was associate three who also encouraged people 54:59.196 --> 55:01.532 I’d like to emphasize this phrase, 55:07.938 --> 55:11.275 about what journalism is and what it can’t be. 55:13.277 --> 55:17.148 This is entirely about the publications of 2010. 55:17.181 --> 55:20.584 This is about the collateral murder era of WikiLeaks 55:20.617 --> 55:23.053 where publications were supposedly sourced 55:23.086 --> 55:25.822 from the alleged whistleblower Chelsea Manning. 55:29.293 --> 55:33.097 Now, encouraging people to send material is not a crime. 55:37.935 --> 55:40.037 If he ends up shipped off to America, 55:40.070 --> 55:44.808 he will be put in a place like \hthe ADX Supermax in Colorado. 55:45.876 --> 55:48.545 You get to see through a very small hole, 55:48.579 --> 55:50.581 if you’re lucky enough to get a window. 55:55.118 --> 55:59.456 I mean he’s already been tortured and arbitrarily detained. 56:01.291 --> 56:05.762 So I’m sure that when Jake saw this indictment, 56:05.796 --> 56:09.833 it didn’t encourage him to feel secure about his safety. 56:18.375 --> 56:20.978 How long has it been since you’ve been in the US? 56:22.279 --> 56:26.784 It’s six years and approximately one month and seven days, 56:34.258 --> 56:37.361 So I advised Jake not to come back. 56:38.762 --> 56:42.366 I paint the picture of what would happen if he went home 56:42.399 --> 56:45.035 and that kind of explains why he shouldn’t go home. 56:49.706 --> 56:51.074 You know, I didn’t leave the United States 56:51.108 --> 56:52.576 with the intention of not going back. 56:54.011 --> 56:55.880 I’d like to visit my father’s grave. 56:58.081 --> 57:00.050 I’d like to be able to see my brothers. 57:05.322 --> 57:07.791 My father was very sick for most of my life 57:07.824 --> 57:12.896 and he had hepatitis C and had \ha very bad heroin addiction. 57:15.165 --> 57:17.834 I learned (speaks in foreign language) for example, 57:17.868 --> 57:19.937 it’s one of my first Spanish sentences. 57:19.970 --> 57:22.439 It’s like a gram of black tar heroin. 57:23.774 --> 57:27.077 We used to drive to this part of town called Roseland 57:28.445 --> 57:30.647 and then we’d drive home and he’d shoot up. 57:32.883 --> 57:34.885 I spent a lot of time with him when he was high 57:34.918 --> 57:37.087 and he was pretty funny when he was high. 57:37.120 --> 57:39.889 He was always in a good mood, it got rid of his back pain. 57:41.358 --> 57:43.160 My bar mitzvah was my father handed me 57:43.193 --> 57:46.063 a used Jimi Hendrix tape that had 57:48.365 --> 57:51.869 and he said, "Congratulations, you survived. 57:51.902 --> 57:55.339 You’re a man." (soft tense music) 58:00.644 --> 58:04.148 The police would come to our house and do surveillance. 58:04.181 --> 58:06.583 So I had practiced telling the police to get fucked 58:06.616 --> 58:08.318 about asking me to be an informant 58:16.293 --> 58:18.495 which was called the Orange Street House, 58:20.130 --> 58:23.467 \hand every nook and cranny was eventually filled with people. 58:24.568 --> 58:26.070 I mean it was a shooting gallery. 58:32.476 --> 58:34.945 And then later I remember taking him to the hospital 58:46.390 --> 58:48.492 So I was alone with him in the hospital, 58:50.260 --> 58:55.031 and yeah, and he died in my arms. 59:04.441 --> 59:08.111 I was 18. (melancholy music) 59:21.058 --> 59:26.130 In 2016, I was, in the beginning of the year, 59:28.632 --> 59:32.302 and in the summer I was effectively not a person anymore. 59:36.840 --> 59:39.343 So the website, JacobApplebaum.net 59:44.481 --> 59:47.317 There were countless web news articles, 59:52.789 --> 59:56.226 investigated the main allegations against Jake. 59:58.995 --> 01:00:01.731 Neither wanted to talk \habout Jake at first. 01:00:04.935 --> 01:00:07.271 But eventually they took pity on me. 01:00:22.519 --> 01:00:24.755 On this website, you had a range of accounts 01:00:24.788 --> 01:00:27.991 on how, you know, Jacob’d grope people 01:00:28.024 --> 01:00:30.226 or behaved inappropriately with them 01:00:30.260 --> 01:00:32.262 or didn’t respect their boundaries. 01:00:35.699 --> 01:00:38.502 how he frightened people, and yeah, 01:00:38.535 --> 01:00:40.337 and there was one allegation of rape. 01:00:43.573 --> 01:00:48.545 My first impression was, wow, that’s bad, 01:00:49.713 --> 01:00:52.649 and those brave people speaking out 01:00:52.682 --> 01:00:56.653 going against somebody who’s such a key figure 01:00:58.822 --> 01:01:01.358 Isn’t one angle enough? I don’t, I mean... 01:01:01.391 --> 01:01:04.327 Nadim Kobeissi, a former friend of Jake’s, 01:01:06.329 --> 01:01:10.400 before agreeing very reluctantly to talk about Jake. 01:01:12.669 --> 01:01:15.872 On that website, there was a story by someone called Kiwi 01:01:17.174 --> 01:01:19.143 And I recounted truthfully and honestly 01:01:19.176 --> 01:01:22.746 my professional experiences with Jake. 01:01:24.881 --> 01:01:27.584 How he would humiliate people at work, 01:01:29.052 --> 01:01:31.955 with meetings with potential funders for projects. 01:01:34.958 --> 01:01:36.893 to get me kicked out of the field. 01:01:36.927 --> 01:01:39.062 I spoke about that sort of thing. 01:01:39.095 --> 01:01:40.630 Many of the stories there are much worse, 01:01:44.935 --> 01:01:47.871 So one account was given by a lady 01:01:49.940 --> 01:01:53.277 She’s known as Isis to the community. 01:02:02.319 --> 01:02:04.688 where she was sleeping in the same bed 01:02:04.721 --> 01:02:08.058 with Jacob Applebaum and Jacob groped her. 01:02:13.263 --> 01:02:16.333 Sometime around five o’clock in the morning, 01:02:16.366 --> 01:02:19.736 I woke up very confused and startled 01:02:21.838 --> 01:02:24.874 and Jake’s arm was wrapped around me, 01:02:28.245 --> 01:02:32.549 He rolled over a bit exaggeratedly, mumbling as if asleep. 01:02:36.686 --> 01:02:40.857 Isis told Anna Lowell that it happened in a period 01:02:40.890 --> 01:02:45.595 of the year where she gave an exact date. 01:02:47.731 --> 01:02:51.235 the incident happened January 2014 in Berlin. 01:02:52.836 --> 01:02:56.973 and I showed her that exact date I was in Thailand. 01:03:03.713 --> 01:03:06.849 Isis did not respond to multiple interview requests 01:03:12.222 --> 01:03:15.092 So on the website, Sam, as Alison Macrina, 01:03:15.125 --> 01:03:18.996 which is her real name, she was friends with Jacob. 01:03:20.230 --> 01:03:24.034 the most badass radical, librarian around. 01:03:24.067 --> 01:03:27.704 This is Alison. (audience applauding) 01:03:35.712 --> 01:03:40.417 Okay, so she says she was manipulated by Jacob Applebaum 01:03:44.487 --> 01:03:46.289 He told me he wanted to take a bath 01:03:46.323 --> 01:03:50.127 and invited me into his bathroom to hang out with him. 01:03:50.160 --> 01:03:54.297 I said, "Okay, but I don’t wanna take a bath with you." 01:03:54.331 --> 01:03:57.868 He immediately began coercing me to get into his bathtub 01:03:59.135 --> 01:04:02.639 and eventually I said, "Okay, I’ll keep my underwear 01:04:02.672 --> 01:04:05.708 and t-shirt on," and put my legs in the water. 01:04:05.742 --> 01:04:09.312 \hHe then kind of pulled me into the tub halfway, 01:04:09.346 --> 01:04:12.416 turned me around and started to wash me. 01:04:12.449 --> 01:04:15.786 His non-consensual washing lasted about a minute or two 01:04:15.819 --> 01:04:17.754 before I leaped out of his bathtub 01:04:17.787 --> 01:04:20.323 and started crying in the corner of his bathroom. 01:04:25.895 --> 01:04:29.832 that I found conflicting accounts on what happened. 01:04:31.434 --> 01:04:34.170 In the first account, she told me she left right after, 01:04:34.204 --> 01:04:37.674 you know, he pulled her into the bathtub. 01:04:39.008 --> 01:04:42.211 Jacob kept talking to her, calling her a coward 01:04:42.245 --> 01:04:44.948 and touched her until she had the energy 01:04:44.981 --> 01:04:47.283 to remove herself from this situation. 01:05:02.165 --> 01:05:05.568 And the second conversation I had with her on the phone 01:05:05.602 --> 01:05:08.939 was that she told me that she left his house 01:05:08.972 --> 01:05:12.242 after they worked together in the bedroom. 01:05:13.376 --> 01:05:18.114 \hSo her story changed. (tense dramatic music) 01:05:19.482 --> 01:05:22.518 I drained the bath, we went out, we went into the bedroom. 01:05:22.552 --> 01:05:27.223 She calmed down and then propositioned me for sex 01:05:27.257 --> 01:05:30.026 and we discussed it and then we had sex on my bed 01:05:30.059 --> 01:05:34.463 for a while until my boyfriend and his boyfriend came home 01:05:34.497 --> 01:05:38.001 and she wanted to stop then, so we stopped 01:05:38.034 --> 01:05:40.003 ’cause she didn’t want them to be involved 01:05:43.673 --> 01:05:47.977 After more than a year, Alison replied to an email. 01:05:54.083 --> 01:05:56.285 But then she talked to \hsome other Tor people 01:05:56.319 --> 01:05:58.721 who weren’t talking and changed her mind. 01:06:08.731 --> 01:06:12.969 Who later gave her real name as Chelsea Komlo. 01:06:14.037 --> 01:06:15.438 Okay, cool. Thank you for coming today. 01:06:15.472 --> 01:06:19.042 I’m Chelsea, and this is Isis, a colleague and friend. 01:06:19.075 --> 01:06:23.546 Komlo was briefly involved romantically was Jacob 01:06:23.580 --> 01:06:28.652 on New Year’s Eve of 2015 and the days afterwards. 01:06:36.593 --> 01:06:38.128 I didn’t know until very recently 01:06:38.161 --> 01:06:42.065 that non-consensual sex by a friend is rape. 01:06:43.366 --> 01:06:46.002 When I became romantically involved with Jacob, 01:06:46.035 --> 01:06:49.672 I clearly told him I wasn’t interested in group sex 01:06:49.706 --> 01:06:52.442 or having sex in front of other people. 01:07:03.052 --> 01:07:06.389 I blacked out and when I came back into consciousness, 01:07:06.422 --> 01:07:09.292 Jacob was having sex with me in the living room 01:07:29.679 --> 01:07:31.714 Most of the witnesses from those days 01:07:37.120 --> 01:07:38.888 This is obviously very \hemotional for me so- 01:07:42.859 --> 01:07:46.796 \hBut one does finally agree to discuss the night in question. 01:07:47.931 --> 01:07:52.669 One of the reasons why I was determined to, like, 01:07:54.037 --> 01:07:57.807 talk about this in public was because the painting 01:07:59.175 --> 01:08:03.112 that was drawn from Chelsea in her anonymous blog post 01:08:12.255 --> 01:08:13.957 I don’t remember if that was the plan or what, 01:08:13.990 --> 01:08:17.994 but by the time the movie started, the couch was laid out. 01:08:18.027 --> 01:08:22.798 It was my two friends and then Chelsea and Jake, 01:08:22.832 --> 01:08:25.768 so those two couples were there on the couch together 01:08:25.802 --> 01:08:29.406 under a blanket and then I was just off to the side. 01:08:31.908 --> 01:08:34.844 so it was like making the room fairly bright. 01:08:34.877 --> 01:08:39.615 And what was her degree of participation, I guess, 01:08:39.649 --> 01:08:41.784 in whatever was or wasn’t going on? 01:08:43.086 --> 01:08:44.187 Well, I mean, there wasn’t anything going on. 01:08:46.122 --> 01:08:48.891 we were all casually hanging out, 01:08:48.925 --> 01:08:52.829 watching a film and two different couples were cuddling 01:08:52.862 --> 01:08:55.531 with themselves separate from each other. 01:08:55.565 --> 01:08:59.536 I didn’t, there wasn’t anything substantial that happened. 01:08:59.569 --> 01:09:02.439 It was just a very relaxed movie night. 01:09:08.811 --> 01:09:13.883 I was within a couple inches of the couch. 01:09:15.118 --> 01:09:17.487 It, like, I was immediately next to the couch. 01:09:17.520 --> 01:09:18.821 There was nothing that alluded me 01:09:18.855 --> 01:09:20.490 to think that they were either naked 01:09:20.523 --> 01:09:24.327 or having sexual relations under the blanket. 01:09:28.297 --> 01:09:31.467 Like, the vibe that she was describing. 01:09:31.501 --> 01:09:33.603 Like it was very malicious, it was very hate, 01:09:33.636 --> 01:09:36.639 like not hateful, but, like, it was terrible. 01:09:36.673 --> 01:09:39.476 She made it sound like if anyone, 01:09:39.509 --> 01:09:42.412 if any bystander had been like in that apartment 01:09:46.282 --> 01:09:49.385 like yelled "Stop," you know, "What you’re doing is wrong." 01:09:50.720 --> 01:09:52.989 was just completely the opposite. 01:09:56.259 --> 01:09:59.462 My conclusion is, from talking to all the eyewitnesses, 01:10:03.366 --> 01:10:05.401 that she was involved with Jacob. 01:10:07.737 --> 01:10:11.708 So I couldn’t corroborate the rape allegation. 01:10:13.643 --> 01:10:17.046 Chelsea did not respond to multiple interview requests 01:10:20.316 --> 01:10:24.754 But the assumption was that their stories were true. 01:10:29.058 --> 01:10:32.161 As a journalist, you’re trained to check everything, 01:10:32.195 --> 01:10:35.365 so everything you believe being true, 01:10:35.398 --> 01:10:38.401 you go and try to check it and you don’t check it once, 01:10:38.434 --> 01:10:39.869 you try to check it for many people 01:11:12.135 --> 01:11:15.338 Yeah, later she shouted at me for, what did she say? 01:11:15.371 --> 01:11:17.506 I don’t remember the correct wording anymore. 01:11:19.075 --> 01:11:21.744 I lied to her, I think she said. Yeah. 01:11:21.778 --> 01:11:24.748 And I responded that I never lied to her, 01:11:24.781 --> 01:11:27.450 that she actually changed her story 01:11:28.584 --> 01:11:31.253 and I reported on what she told me. 01:11:34.590 --> 01:11:36.358 No, she screamed quite loudly, I think, 01:11:36.392 --> 01:11:39.662 was about that she didn’t feel safe or something. 01:11:39.695 --> 01:11:42.431 She’s like, no, "Nobody’s gonna talk to you. 01:11:52.074 --> 01:11:54.677 I mean it was very important for me to say that, you know, 01:11:54.710 --> 01:11:57.179 it’s not that I’m here to defend Jake. 01:11:57.213 --> 01:12:00.283 My idea is to find out what happened as much as I can 01:12:00.316 --> 01:12:03.920 and it’s a puzzle and you will always have blank pieces. 01:12:07.323 --> 01:12:09.725 The one place everybody does seem happy 01:12:09.759 --> 01:12:12.262 to talk about Jake is on Twitter. 01:12:26.943 --> 01:12:29.379 Because of course you question also Tor 01:12:29.412 --> 01:12:31.981 and you question everything that he was involved with 01:12:32.014 --> 01:12:33.916 after what happened, because everyone thinks, 01:12:35.718 --> 01:12:38.588 One of the key things is that people in this room 01:12:38.621 --> 01:12:40.189 that work on free software were... 01:12:41.924 --> 01:12:44.160 but there’s no community around it anymore. 01:12:49.031 --> 01:12:52.568 This is something that is so effective 01:12:52.602 --> 01:12:55.472 that I cannot imagine that you just do it like this, 01:12:55.504 --> 01:12:57.473 you know, because these people are intelligent 01:12:58.674 --> 01:13:00.609 They are all nerdy women, you know, 01:13:02.478 --> 01:13:05.748 So I cannot imagine that they are so stupid 01:13:07.950 --> 01:13:10.519 that they would do to the whole movement, 01:13:10.553 --> 01:13:15.291 you know, doing this to Jake. (tense dramatic music) 01:13:16.359 --> 01:13:19.729 I find it extremely weird that it’s so easy 01:13:19.762 --> 01:13:23.899 to take out a person who is really a dissident, you know, 01:13:26.535 --> 01:13:29.271 very successful in this movement, 01:13:29.305 --> 01:13:32.475 and very dangerous, actually, to the powerful, 01:13:32.508 --> 01:13:34.243 to people who do mass surveillance, 01:13:34.277 --> 01:13:37.380 to secret services, military and so on. 01:13:41.784 --> 01:13:44.654 so if you attempt to attack them, 01:13:44.687 --> 01:13:46.589 sure it will backfire in some way. 01:13:50.092 --> 01:13:53.329 that if this is not orchestrated directly 01:14:09.578 --> 01:14:12.381 This is something that has a long history. 01:14:15.318 --> 01:14:17.620 There has never been a full public accounting 01:14:17.653 --> 01:14:20.689 of FBI domestic intelligence operations. 01:14:21.691 --> 01:14:23.393 Therefore, this committee has undertaken 01:14:24.860 --> 01:14:26.862 We’ve found out in the church committee 01:14:26.896 --> 01:14:29.966 that there were things that were called COINTELPRO, 01:14:29.999 --> 01:14:33.002 which was counterintelligence operations. 01:14:34.103 --> 01:14:37.840 COINTELPRO is the effort by the Bureau 01:14:37.873 --> 01:14:40.876 to destroy people and to \hdestroy organizations. 01:14:42.178 --> 01:14:45.615 It was practiced specifically against Dr. King. 01:14:45.648 --> 01:14:48.518 You can’t begin to say that the Black Panther party... 01:14:48.551 --> 01:14:51.020 Against Black Panthers and many other groups. 01:14:51.053 --> 01:14:52.988 They attempted to translate the tactics 01:14:53.022 --> 01:14:55.424 used first against the Communist Party, 01:14:55.458 --> 01:14:57.994 against virtually every perceived enemy. 01:15:00.629 --> 01:15:04.566 They sent false letters, false love letters, 01:15:07.203 --> 01:15:10.306 put people in groups against each other. 01:15:10.339 --> 01:15:13.909 You know, did these things to destroy political action. 01:15:13.943 --> 01:15:17.313 Bureau agents were told to attack the new left, 01:15:17.346 --> 01:15:19.615 including to follow and report the activities 01:15:19.648 --> 01:15:22.151 of the Women’s Liberation Movement. 01:15:23.386 --> 01:15:26.122 One of the methods that the US had developed 01:15:26.155 --> 01:15:28.924 was to do character assassination 01:15:28.958 --> 01:15:32.228 by putting in agents who would create trouble 01:15:36.966 --> 01:15:40.303 or accusations of infidelity or anything else that, 01:15:40.336 --> 01:15:44.740 at that time in history, would destroy your reputation. 01:15:44.774 --> 01:15:48.544 The plan here is to completely discredit Dr. King 01:15:48.577 --> 01:15:51.613 by quote, "Taking him off his pedestal 01:15:52.882 --> 01:15:55.618 and to reduce him completely in influence." 01:15:56.952 --> 01:15:59.188 Just to make an accusation against a person 01:15:59.221 --> 01:16:02.024 perhaps is not exactly effective, 01:16:02.058 --> 01:16:04.894 but everybody you know is imperfect. 01:16:06.962 --> 01:16:08.697 that you can raise about a person 01:16:08.731 --> 01:16:11.467 and then raise it to a higher degree, 01:16:11.500 --> 01:16:13.469 then there’s a seed of truth in it 01:16:13.502 --> 01:16:16.905 so that you can really get on a train 01:16:16.939 --> 01:16:19.175 and make it into something really important 01:16:20.242 --> 01:16:22.411 that you forget, that what caused it 01:16:22.445 --> 01:16:25.748 was not really significant, it was just a human failure. 01:16:34.023 --> 01:16:36.926 Actually they don’t have to do much, the secret service. 01:16:38.360 --> 01:16:42.364 take popcorn and see what happens, you know? 01:16:57.346 --> 01:17:00.449 Isis accusing other people of things. 01:17:00.483 --> 01:17:03.720 Well, there was the Jake accusation, 01:17:09.592 --> 01:17:11.527 \hone of the co-founders of the Electronic Frontier Foundation 01:17:11.560 --> 01:17:14.496 was accused of being a drug dealer, 01:17:14.530 --> 01:17:17.066 a cocaine or heroin dealer or something like that, 01:17:17.099 --> 01:17:21.303 who had sent his drug dealing henchman to beat them up, 01:17:25.207 --> 01:17:28.644 Then there was the accusation of Dan Bernstein, 01:17:28.677 --> 01:17:31.146 who is a well known academic in the field. 01:17:33.015 --> 01:17:35.684 And his wife or his partner, Tanja Lange, 01:17:35.718 --> 01:17:38.888 conspiring to make Isis homeless. 01:17:38.921 --> 01:17:41.824 Then there was the accusation against Will Scott. 01:17:41.857 --> 01:17:44.226 He was accused of some sexual thing. 01:17:44.260 --> 01:17:47.330 And then there was the accusation against Peter Todd, 01:17:48.831 --> 01:17:51.033 Moritz Bartl, who was a contributor to the Tor Project, 01:17:51.066 --> 01:17:54.836 accused of being a spy, like a narc or something. 01:17:54.870 --> 01:17:57.406 Other people were accused of various forms of assault, 01:17:59.508 --> 01:18:01.643 And I think that ultimately the number of people 01:18:01.677 --> 01:18:05.147 that they’ve accused of serious crimes was maybe 10 or more. 01:18:16.025 --> 01:18:20.596 \hIt seemed very odd that someone who was so smart 01:18:20.629 --> 01:18:24.199 and talented was constantly, constantly 01:18:24.233 --> 01:18:26.569 making very extreme accusations against people. 01:18:26.602 --> 01:18:29.238 Someone who was highly respected by me prior. 01:18:29.271 --> 01:18:31.106 And at that time I felt like I basically 01:18:35.678 --> 01:18:38.748 And basically Peter Todd sent me a tweet that they wrote, 01:18:38.781 --> 01:18:41.284 that Isis wrote about Peter Todd. 01:18:42.384 --> 01:18:44.786 What was the tweet Peter Todd sent you? 01:18:56.298 --> 01:18:58.066 There seems to be a pattern of accusing 01:19:04.306 --> 01:19:06.375 I was accused of being a serial rapist 01:19:13.182 --> 01:19:15.685 Her direct reply was a very long series of tweets 01:19:15.718 --> 01:19:18.454 in which I was called many insults. 01:19:24.159 --> 01:19:26.461 and a lot of injustice because it’s not true. 01:19:32.167 --> 01:19:33.535 When Isis came out with her story, 01:19:33.569 --> 01:19:35.604 this other person called Chelsea Komlo, 01:19:35.638 --> 01:19:37.573 she started tweeting threats at me out of nowhere, 01:19:39.375 --> 01:19:42.912 She had personal stories about me that she had heard 01:19:42.945 --> 01:19:44.980 and that she had experienced things with me 01:19:46.315 --> 01:19:49.318 I’ve never met her, never spoken to her, 01:19:51.487 --> 01:19:53.389 "We know the bad things you’ve done." 01:19:55.157 --> 01:19:57.259 And I replied to her, "What are you talking about?" 01:19:57.293 --> 01:19:59.929 And she said, "You’re a terrible person. 01:19:59.962 --> 01:20:02.031 We know all the bad things you’ve done." 01:20:04.633 --> 01:20:06.568 And then whenever I would go to a conference, 01:20:06.602 --> 01:20:08.337 there would be a litany of tweets 01:20:10.506 --> 01:20:12.541 how I should not be at that conference, 01:20:12.574 --> 01:20:15.811 how I would make my mother proud if I committed suicide. 01:20:17.146 --> 01:20:20.116 How the conference organizer should remove me. 01:20:23.619 --> 01:20:25.721 The conference attendees, themselves, 01:20:25.754 --> 01:20:27.322 should take matters into their own hands 01:20:27.356 --> 01:20:29.124 and physically remove me by force. 01:20:34.563 --> 01:20:36.698 People recognized me from Isis’s tweets. 01:20:36.732 --> 01:20:39.535 They showed me Isis’s tweets on their phone 01:20:39.568 --> 01:20:42.004 and physically confiscated my phone 01:20:42.037 --> 01:20:47.009 and then pushed me to the ground and started insulting me 01:20:52.014 --> 01:20:55.384 I actually asked while they were doing this, like, why? 01:20:57.152 --> 01:20:58.553 That’s what they said. "You know why." 01:20:58.587 --> 01:21:01.557 And they showed me the tweet on their phone, like Twitter. 01:21:01.590 --> 01:21:03.892 "That’s why." And it’s Isis’s tweet. 01:21:11.533 --> 01:21:13.668 \hfrom the same people who are accusing Jake. 01:21:15.838 --> 01:21:17.807 And there’s a sort of like George W. Bush, 01:21:17.840 --> 01:21:20.509 like you’re either with us or against us sort of thing. 01:21:35.557 --> 01:21:38.560 So I was offered a deal. \hI was offered immunity. 01:21:39.695 --> 01:21:43.265 I was invited to testify against Julian 01:21:43.298 --> 01:21:46.568 in the, what we call the WikiLeaks grand jury. 01:21:48.771 --> 01:21:51.440 It is being used to go after people 01:21:51.473 --> 01:21:53.875 that are in any way associated with WikiLeaks, 01:21:53.909 --> 01:21:57.913 with Julian Assange, and to force them, 01:21:57.946 --> 01:22:01.716 under threat of indefinite detention, to testify. 01:22:05.654 --> 01:22:07.156 When I called Julian on the phone 01:22:07.189 --> 01:22:10.259 to tell him I’d received this invitation to the grand jury, 01:22:10.292 --> 01:22:13.362 at the cost of his life, he said, you know, 01:22:13.395 --> 01:22:16.932 "In 2016, Tor took away your ability to define yourself. 01:22:16.965 --> 01:22:20.735 But in 2018, that grand jury gave it back to you. 01:22:22.070 --> 01:22:24.239 So who do you want to be? How do you want to be? 01:22:24.273 --> 01:22:25.474 You know, you should think about it. 01:22:25.507 --> 01:22:26.408 Maybe you want to take the deal." 01:22:51.500 --> 01:22:56.472 I’m not so interested in speaking in public these days. 01:22:57.706 --> 01:22:59.107 It is also the case that I’m not invited 01:22:59.141 --> 01:23:00.709 to many of the places that I was often invited to, 01:23:04.480 --> 01:23:06.782 to not be completely socially isolated. 01:23:06.815 --> 01:23:10.052 And I wanted to see other people where, you know, 01:23:10.085 --> 01:23:11.620 they didn’t try to publicly shame me 01:23:11.653 --> 01:23:15.357 or treat me with massive disrespect. 01:23:19.127 --> 01:23:21.596 Here basically everybody has been detained 01:23:21.630 --> 01:23:24.466 or arrested or threatened or blacklisted 01:23:24.500 --> 01:23:28.671 or banned or deported or something else like that. 01:23:30.906 --> 01:23:33.308 You know, when things are really difficult, 01:23:33.342 --> 01:23:37.847 you definitely would like to know who is on side. 01:23:41.383 --> 01:23:42.985 I feel really humbled to be invited here 01:23:43.018 --> 01:23:44.820 and actually, I haven’t been speaking in public 01:23:44.853 --> 01:23:48.390 for many years because in 2016, like Julian Assange 01:23:48.423 --> 01:23:51.459 and approximately a dozen other people that I know, 01:23:51.493 --> 01:23:53.261 I was accused of a whole bunch of things 01:23:53.295 --> 01:23:55.531 from eating the last piece of cake 01:24:01.403 --> 01:24:03.839 left wing liberal Californians, where I’m from, 01:24:03.872 --> 01:24:06.274 they don’t dignify me as being in political exile. 01:24:06.308 --> 01:24:08.977 And I think the most important \hthing to say to those people 01:24:09.011 --> 01:24:12.414 is that they’re privileged fucks and I hate them. 01:24:17.085 --> 01:24:19.187 And then a fantastic thing happened. 01:24:19.221 --> 01:24:22.491 In the fall, I think it was of 2018, 01:24:22.524 --> 01:24:25.560 some lawyers that represent me in the United States 01:24:27.262 --> 01:24:29.998 And so the US government, to my understanding, 01:24:30.032 --> 01:24:32.735 said to them that they’d like to know 01:24:32.768 --> 01:24:34.970 \hif I’d be interested in coming in from the cold. 01:24:35.003 --> 01:24:37.873 They offered me a free ticket home, 01:24:41.476 --> 01:24:43.778 Full immunity is a really nice offer. 01:24:46.548 --> 01:24:48.683 it’s like the gold plated Cadillac 01:24:48.717 --> 01:24:50.552 of becoming a piece of shit snitch. 01:24:55.390 --> 01:24:58.693 And they said, you know, essentially just one thing, 01:24:58.727 --> 01:25:01.296 we just need you to testify against Julian Assange. 01:25:02.397 --> 01:25:06.001 So I told them that I will die on foreign soil 01:25:06.034 --> 01:25:09.304 before I ever let you get your fucking Nazi hands on me. 01:25:29.391 --> 01:25:31.326 Yeah, well, you know, you get accused of rape 01:25:32.995 --> 01:25:35.364 on wanting to talk in public, right? 01:25:45.607 --> 01:25:47.008 Go for it. Thank you. 01:25:52.147 --> 01:25:54.616 is the infrastructure for the psychological operations. 01:25:56.218 --> 01:25:58.220 But we’ll have time. I’ll be here for three days. 01:26:04.192 --> 01:26:05.593 See you tomorrow. _ Yep. 01:26:06.628 --> 01:26:09.097 My team and I spent over two years 01:26:09.131 --> 01:26:12.534 chasing more than 40 people to talk about Jake. 01:26:13.602 --> 01:26:18.674 Tor, people alleged victims, friends, foes. 01:26:27.849 --> 01:26:30.819 And only the handful you’ve met agreed, 01:26:38.994 --> 01:26:39.795 Okay. We’re done for today. 01:26:39.828 --> 01:26:41.029 Okay. Okay. 01:26:41.063 --> 01:26:43.432 Now why should people be \hafraid to speak freely 01:26:43.465 --> 01:26:46.601 in a community dedicated to internet freedom? 01:26:47.869 --> 01:26:49.170 I think let’s leave it at that for today. 01:26:49.204 --> 01:26:50.839 Are you sure? Yeah. 01:26:56.378 --> 01:26:58.247 But they sure seem to tweet a lot. 01:26:59.381 --> 01:27:01.884 Like whenever Jake makes a speech 01:27:09.091 --> 01:27:11.360 or someone tries to make a film about him... 01:27:21.136 --> 01:27:23.171 I think we’ll leave it at that for today. 01:27:23.205 --> 01:27:25.474 Are you sure? ’Cause I can keep going for another hour. 01:27:42.124 --> 01:27:44.693 What do I have to gain from this? It’s completely stupid. 01:27:45.927 --> 01:27:47.395 I don’t want to associate with this guy. 01:27:52.234 --> 01:27:54.470 He’s just a, he’s a fucked up asshole loser, 01:27:54.503 --> 01:27:56.605 like, I don’t give a shit about him. 01:28:12.888 --> 01:28:17.459 (dramatic electronic music continues) 01:28:22.631 --> 01:28:27.202 (dramatic electronic music continues)